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Faith is not a work
- Thread starter romanbear
- Start date
James is talking about faith in action, how one shows that he has faith. He isn't talking specifically about regeneration in that passage. </font>[/QUOTE]Notice that you response doesn't address my comment.
I was commenting on the fact that Christ rebukes people's lack of faith. Calvinism believe that God is completely responsible for man's faith; therefore, it makes no sense for God to rebuke them for something that he doesn't apparently give them enough of.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
My question, Ken, is, Do you agree that having faith that someone or something exists is not the same as having faith in that which exists?
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Why would God give faith to those who only believe that He exists?
It really doesn't matter if you believe that faith is God's responsiblity. Do you believe faith is God's responsiblity in salvation and man's responsiblity when it comes to "faith in action?" Faith is faith. Is it God's responsiblity, or man's? If it's completely God's, why does he rebuke people for not having it?
Look at Matt. 23:37 as one example of Christ's rebuking the Pharisees for their unwillingness to come to him. This doesn't make much since for Christ to rebuke them if it's actually God's unwillingness to grant them the willingness to be gathered. Christ should say, "Oh, how I've longed to gather you under my wings but I was not willing to grant you the willingness."
Where have I heard that objection before? Oh yeah...
To which Paul replies, "Well, you're responsible for the way you are, because you have free will!" Wait...no, that's not what Paul says. He says...
</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, how you enjoy ignoring context for your benefit.
This passage is not speaking about faith it is speaking about hardening, which is why he speaks about Pharoah and says, "Therefore He has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he HARDENS whom he wants to HARDEN."
Paul, using diatribe here, might anticipate an Israelites response, ""Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
In other words, "Why does God find fault with hardened people if the one who is hardened can't resist His will?"
If you have the ability to look at this objectively you will see that it has absolutely nothing to do with my previous comment concerning faith, but I'm sure if you continue in your normal fashion you will ignore the obvious meaning of this text in order to apply it for your own purposes.
Oh, how you enjoy ignoring the plain meaning of scripture in favor of your own imagination!Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Oh, how you enjoy ignoring context for your benefit.
He does not say He has mercy on those who do not harden themselves first, but he hardens those who do harden themselves first. He says He has mercy on whomever he wants to have mercy, and hardens whomever he wants to harden.
The former does not even come close to matching the question, "for who resists His will?" The answer to that would be, "You do, when you harden yourselves, which is why God chooses to harden you more instead of have mercy upon you."
But that's not the answer given.
So, Nick, you are arguing that Pharoah really did want to let the people go from the beginning, but God hardened him and made him want to keep them around?
You believe that the Israelites were not unwilling before God hardened them by giving them a "spirit of stupor?"
Many scholars, even Calvinistic ones, who comment on hardening believe that those who are hardened by God are only being hardened in their own wills.
You've forced yourself to take a position that your side doesn't hold too, good luck.
You believe that the Israelites were not unwilling before God hardened them by giving them a "spirit of stupor?"
Many scholars, even Calvinistic ones, who comment on hardening believe that those who are hardened by God are only being hardened in their own wills.
You've forced yourself to take a position that your side doesn't hold too, good luck.
See what hardening gets you Nick??
May I say, (paraphrase) The Grace of God is sufficient.
[wait a minute, Glasgow is not Geneva, ok, do any arminians have any dirt on John Knox?]
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Just trying to stay consistent with the view that some hold.
It never occurred to these same that this view of Calvin resulted in his belief that the church was inclusive of the social community and not viewed as the Scripture teaches as being a strict community of believers, which as you know membership particularly depends on voluntary submission to baptism, hence my belief that this is not a representation of the church.
It is the failure of correct teaching, or over emphasis on the part of all including Calvinists that result in the error in the actions of the saints, past and present.
I am sure you know church history sufficiently to know that Christian evangelization is not rejected in Asian countries because God does not have a people to call from those places, but rather because of the baggage our missionary brethren carried with them to those lands to impose western culture rather than the doctrines of God.
I am not sufficient to declare these things, but from time to time I wonder if anyone else is declaring them.
Oh well. We cannot save the world, so let's incorporate their pagan traditions and influence their culture and at the same time present Christ in such a way that acceptance does not mean only reconciliation with God, but also westernization.
How did this happen? Because the established church began to view itself as a protectorate of the society and thus engulfed all individuals in its geographic control and influence.
You know this so I will shut up now.
BTW, after midnight, Mumbo Jumbo becomes my middle name, can't help it, just seem to lose my composure, sorry. I guess you have noticed I enjoy a good laugh at least I hope you noticed this.
Have you read the comment Spurgeon made concerning the sense of humor God possesses? In relation to his pug bull-dogs? Granted, I am no C.H. Spurgeon, but I agree with him.
God Bless
Bro. Dallas
It never occurred to these same that this view of Calvin resulted in his belief that the church was inclusive of the social community and not viewed as the Scripture teaches as being a strict community of believers, which as you know membership particularly depends on voluntary submission to baptism, hence my belief that this is not a representation of the church.
It is the failure of correct teaching, or over emphasis on the part of all including Calvinists that result in the error in the actions of the saints, past and present.
I am sure you know church history sufficiently to know that Christian evangelization is not rejected in Asian countries because God does not have a people to call from those places, but rather because of the baggage our missionary brethren carried with them to those lands to impose western culture rather than the doctrines of God.
I am not sufficient to declare these things, but from time to time I wonder if anyone else is declaring them.
Oh well. We cannot save the world, so let's incorporate their pagan traditions and influence their culture and at the same time present Christ in such a way that acceptance does not mean only reconciliation with God, but also westernization.
How did this happen? Because the established church began to view itself as a protectorate of the society and thus engulfed all individuals in its geographic control and influence.
You know this so I will shut up now.
BTW, after midnight, Mumbo Jumbo becomes my middle name, can't help it, just seem to lose my composure, sorry. I guess you have noticed I enjoy a good laugh
at least I hope you noticed this.Have you read the comment Spurgeon made concerning the sense of humor God possesses? In relation to his pug bull-dogs? Granted, I am no C.H. Spurgeon, but I agree with him.
God Bless
Bro. Dallas
Thanks for your hospitality.
Again, I would beg of you, is Mumbo Jumbo voo-doo? I have seen some documentaries on voo-dooism and even some that accuse Christianity of invading this ancient tradition and instilling into it a jealousy that previously was unknown. Makes you wonder how deeply instilled the depravity of man is doesn't it? Is it not a cancer in the very marrow of our lives brother?
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Again, I would beg of you, is Mumbo Jumbo voo-doo? I have seen some documentaries on voo-dooism and even some that accuse Christianity of invading this ancient tradition and instilling into it a jealousy that previously was unknown. Makes you wonder how deeply instilled the depravity of man is doesn't it? Is it not a cancer in the very marrow of our lives brother?
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Now what does any of that diversion have to do with "FAITH IS NOT A WORK"....the title of this post?
I ask again, "Why would God give faith to those who only believe that He exists?" Even the the demons believe that there is one God!
I ask again, "Why would God give faith to those who only believe that He exists?" Even the the demons believe that there is one God!
Good morning Yelsew,
Your question:
"Why would God give faith to those who only believe that He exists?"
I have deliberately left off the part where you point out the devil and demons believe. This is solid proof that belief is much more than an intellectual knowledge of God's existence, even that Christ is the Son of God is not included in such factual knowledge.
Now your question, let us turn to Scripture:
Psalm 23 should be familiar for starters
'He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.' vs. 3
God Bless.
Brother Dallas
Your question:
"Why would God give faith to those who only believe that He exists?"
I have deliberately left off the part where you point out the devil and demons believe. This is solid proof that belief is much more than an intellectual knowledge of God's existence, even that Christ is the Son of God is not included in such factual knowledge.
Now your question, let us turn to Scripture:
Psalm 23 should be familiar for starters
'He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.' vs. 3
God Bless.
Brother Dallas
Hi Ken
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Devils and demons have not been given the oppertunity to be saved again. They were already saved to start with. It was there free will that caused them to loose there place in Heaven. They are now dammed because they choose to follow after Satan. Just as you if you decide to follow Satan after tasting of Salvation you will be lost forever. There is no second chance. I'm amazed that you didn't just out right deny the fact the lost can believe without regeneration.
Romanbear
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Devils and demons have not been given the oppertunity to be saved again. They were already saved to start with. It was there free will that caused them to loose there place in Heaven. They are now dammed because they choose to follow after Satan. Just as you if you decide to follow Satan after tasting of Salvation you will be lost forever. There is no second chance. I'm amazed that you didn't just out right deny the fact the lost can believe without regeneration.
Romanbear
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Good morning to you too
That response does not answer the question, but is instead a dodge and deliberate attempt to broaden the scope of the discussion. Let me refresh your memory.
"Why would God give faith to those who only believe that He exists?"
No, Psalm 23 does not answer the question. Afterall you are among those who believe that all faith is from God, and now it is illuminated that even satan's demons "believeth in one God". Does God give satan's demons faith?
That response does not answer the question, but is instead a dodge and deliberate attempt to broaden the scope of the discussion. Let me refresh your memory.
To which you replied
</font>[/QUOTE]Therefore, I Repeat
"Why would God give faith to those who only believe that He exists?"
No, Psalm 23 does not answer the question. Afterall you are among those who believe that all faith is from God, and now it is illuminated that even satan's demons "believeth in one God". Does God give satan's demons faith?