Pastor's Moral Character

Does 1Timothy hold a pastor and deacons to a higher standard with more accountability than other church member? How important is a pastor's moral integrity?

Say there is a certain pastor who has a person promise to "keep a secret" then he tells that person something confidential from counseling another church member? What if he does this often? What if he tells a group of people gathered for a social confidential things from counseling a couple?

If he is using an illustration to make a point without naming anyone or giving TMI so someone would guess who he was talking about, I see nothing wrong with it.

OTOH, if he is using names, he is gossiping and breaking a confidence. I would not go to him for counseling. I would not even respect him as a pastor and would probably be looking for another church.

If you can't trust your pastor, it's time to move on.

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
If he is using an illustration to make a point without naming anyone or giving TMI so someone would guess who he was talking about, I see nothing wrong with it.

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The big problem with that is that there is no good way for the pastor to know how much is "too much information" because others may know some facts or circumstances, but not know what is confidential. Furthermore, the pastor's revelation may lead to church members assuming false things about people because they mistakening assume the pastor was making a reference to another church member.

Pastors need to keep their mouths shut when dealing with confidential stuff unless there is a VERY compelling reason to report a crime such as the sexual abuse of a child.

On the other hand...

Recently my pastor was preaching about "a church where he pastored" where some church members repeated complained to him that the youth ministry was attracting kids who had "problems", didn't look respectable (had earrings and piercings), and were the "wrong" color. He condemned those attitudes from the pulpit using the scriptures.

After the service, a person approached the pastor and asked what church he pastored that would have people who would say things like that... the pastor told her, "It's this church" -- within an arms length of some of the people who actually said those things.

He confronted evil without actually calling out names.

The pastor does give first names. It is not hard to know who he is talking about.

My main question is about 1Timothy 3. It is my belief that these scriptures say a pastor and the deacons must be held to a higher standard. That they must be beyond reproach with their actions and words. Am I wrong?

Originally posted by Yellow Bug:
The pastor does give first names. It is not hard to know who he is talking about.

My main question is about 1Timothy 3. It is my belief that these scriptures say a pastor and the deacons must be held to a higher standard. That they must be beyond reproach with their actions and words. Am I wrong?

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You are right in this case. The question, how ever that arises in my mind is: Does he realize that he is doing this? And second: Have you brought your concerns to his attention privately?

And 3rd, and I hope for your sake: You didn't discuss this with other people in or out of the church about this?

I have not discused this with any other church members. Others have said things to me about the pastor but I don't comment either way about it. I don't want to gossip or in anyway be the cause of dissent or hard feelings. There are several things going on right now that cause me to think I should leave this church. This-believe it or not-is minor compared to some of the other issues.

Originally posted by Yellow Bug:
Does 1Timothy hold a pastor and deacons to a higher standard with more accountability than other church member? How important is a pastor's moral integrity?

Say there is a certain pastor who has a person promise to "keep a secret" then he tells that person something confidential from counseling another church member? What if he does this often? What if he tells a group of people gathered for a social confidential things from counseling a couple?

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Yes, a pastor is held to a higher standard and a pastor should NEVER EVER tell a confidence (not even to this wife).

Rufus

No. A pastor should not be held to a higher standard. No Christian should gossip or betray the trust of another believer. The damage done to the cause of Christ and perhaps the personal punishment for the pastor may be greater but the standard is the same.

Sin is sin.

I believe that a pastor does have a higher standard than regular members in the church. I am surprised that is even a discussion on that point.

On confidentiality; it must be absolute. In fact, when I retired, I burned all my confidential files which had been kept under lock and key all these years.

Cheers,

Jim

I do not see the pastor's standard as being any higher than others in the congregation. All standards must be God's standards.

But the pastor must be a man of at least a certain level of maturity and knowledge.

I can remember one time where a lady called me on the phone furious that I had talked about her. She told me that everyone in the congregation knew I was talking about her. The funny thing is that I told her that I didn't know that about her and that she told me then for the first time.

I have even had people tell me that I said certain things and then I listen to the tape of the sermon and can't find it.

Originally posted by Yellow Bug:
Does 1Timothy hold a pastor and deacons to a higher standard with more accountability than other church member? How important is a pastor's moral integrity?

Say there is a certain pastor who has a person promise to "keep a secret" then he tells that person something confidential from counseling another church member? What if he does this often? What if he tells a group of people gathered for a social confidential things from counseling a couple?

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No, unlike Catholicism, the Bible knows no double standard. More specifically, the pastor is held to a very high standard that all Christians should adhere to--but the qualifications listed accommodate the fact that not all do as they should.

As for breach of confidentiality outside of the eldership, that is inexcusable, and just cause for being fired.

Certainly, a pastor is held to a higher standard. But when we congregants attempt to determine what that higher standard should be, we often end up holding to a double standard instead, not to mention we typically second guess our pastors.

For example, imagine you're in the grocery store picking up wine coolers for the nfl game, and you notice your pastor pickng up a bottle of wine. So you tell others you saw the pastor buying alcohol in the store. What you might not realize is that the pastor was picking up a bottle to use during the surprise wedding anniversary dinner he was secretly making at home for his mother and father.

Say the pastor has been counseling a young woman. The pastor then goes and tells his brother-a divorced and remarried man-who is also a deacon. Then they have a family dinner and the subject is discussed while the extended family is present at the table. Then there is a meeting with about 16 church members and 3 deacons. The deacon brother says the specifics of the counseling can't be discussed. He then goes into detail about who said what regarding the pastor and the woman. Then the people are told they can't mention the pastor's past but the past of the others-including the woman's parents and a friend- are brought up by the deacon brother. The pasts of these people are not relavent to the discussion but the pastor's past is.

Would some of the church members be wrong to feel betrayed by the pastor and the deacons?

I don't see how a man living openly in adultery managed to somehow be ordained a deacon...

Say the pastor has been counseling a young woman. The pastor then goes and tells his brother-a divorced and remarried man-who is also a deacon. Then they have a family dinner and the subject is discussed while the extended family is present at the table. Then there is a meeting with about 16 church members and 3 deacons. The deacon brother says the specifics of the counseling can't be discussed. He then goes into detail about who said what regarding the pastor and the woman. Then the people are told they can't mention the pastor's past but the past of the others-including the woman's parents and a friend- are brought up by the deacon brother.

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Yellow Bug: I don't mean to sound disrespectful; but were you present when all these conversations took place?

If not; how do you know it is the truth?

It sounds like there are way too many rumors being spread around...too many fingers in the pie. He said, she said, they said...

They may just be gossiping to stir up trouble. Actually, when you lay it out on a board like this, you are gossiping also and spreading the rumors further.

Be careful you do not commit the same sin you are accusing them of committing.

Blessings,
§ue

I am trying to sort through a massive overload of information. I need some direction and input. I do know that these things happened. Either I heard them personally or a person who was present told me.

I am in fear for my church. It is dear to me and I don't want to see it split. I can't talk to anyone locally because of where I am. That it should somehow get out and harm the church or any individual greatly concerns me. That I am anonymous on this board helps to protect the church and the people. I have prayed about this. The Lord takes me back to the church each week but it isn't the same now. I have told others who talk about what is happening that it is gossip and I don't want to be a part of the trouble but a part of the solution.

If you have a better suggestion on how I should resolve this please let me know. The problems keeps arising and the deacons are two and two with the deacon brother having the deciding vote.

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
I don't see how a man living openly in adultery managed to somehow be ordained a deacon...

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I am not sure how this happened. I do know he was the petitioner in the divorce. I looked up the case number. The only thing I do know is he became a deacon after his brother became the pastor.

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
I don't mean to sound disrespectful; but were you present when all these conversations took place?

They may just be gossiping to stir up trouble. Actually, when you lay it out on a board like this, you are gossiping also and spreading the rumors further.

Be careful you do not commit the same sin you are accusing them of committing.

Blessings,
§ue

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I tried to edit my posts but I can't. I was going to erase them. I am not trying to gossip. I came to this board because I needed to find answers to my questions from others of like beliefs and practices. There is much more to this than I have posted.

I guess that the answers to my questions shall be there is no answer. I won't attend a church where I can't be sure of the leadership and as such I won't attend church any more. This is the only church in my area that I believe to be a scripture based church. It is the only Fundamental Baptist church for 70 miles.

Please forgive me for not understanding that this is not a safe place to ask my questions. It has never been my intentions to create more havoc, I shall not post any more.

I guess that the answers to my questions shall be there is no answer. I won't attend a church where I can't be sure of the leadership and as such I won't attend church any more. This is the only church in my area that I believe to be a scripture based church. It is the only Fundamental Baptist church for 70 miles.

Please forgive me for not understanding that this is not a safe place to ask my questions. It has never been my intentions to create more havoc, I shall not post any more.

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Again, I do not mean to be disrespectful. But maybe you are leaving the church and leaving this board, not because they are not safe places; but because you are not getting the answers you want?

You are a new poster, you have asked questions. We don't know you, but I don't think anyone has condemned you. All we can do is offer opinions on the information you have given us and that is what we have done.

We are a diverse people, we have different opinions. That does NOT mean this is not a 'safe place' to ask your questions.

However, when you ask questions, you need to be ready for the answers....pro or con.

Blessings,
§ue

Originally posted by Yellow Bug:
Does 1Timothy hold a pastor and deacons to a higher standard with more accountability than other church member? How important is a pastor's moral integrity?

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God is no respecter of persons and hold us all to the same standard. Joseph was a slave in Egypt away from home betrayed by his own family and he still refused to give up his moral integrity and sleep with his master's wife. He chose to go to prison than to sin against God unlike a lot of people we know?

At the annual meeting of the National Baptist Convention in 1998, the Rev. Henry Lyons of St. Petersburg, former President of the National Baptist Convention and personal friend of President Bill Clinton, admitted to an ``inappropriate relationship'' - an increasingly popular euphemism for adultery - with a woman employed by the nation's largest black church group. He said he was sorry and asked for forgiveness and they forgave him. Lyons was once a personal friend of Baptist Bill Clinton.

Lyons was convicted in February 1999 of swindling more than $4 million from companies that wanted to market life insurance, credit cards and cemetery plots to his convention members. Prosecutors said Lyons padded the convention's mailing list with names randomly selected from phone books across the country. Even a grand dragon of the Ku Klux Klan was on the list. He pleaded guilty to federal charges of tax evasion, fraudulent activities and lying to officials

In his sentencing, Judge Schaeffer had ordered Lyons to pay $2.5 million in restitution to the companies who bought his phony mailing lists and to pay $97,000 for the cost of the state probe into his dealings.

Lyons is now serving a five and a half year prison sentence. His bid for a shorter prison term gets nowhere with a trial judge fed up with his crimes. A judge flatly denied the Rev. Henry Lyons' bid to reduce his state prison term rejecting pleas that the religious leader is suffering physically and mentally from incarceration.

Lyons, who has tested positive for exposure to tuberculosis, ``can be treated in prison,'' Pasco-Pinellas Circuit Judge Susan Schaeffer told about a dozen of his supporters. ``Prison is a place that brings on illnesses, a place where you are going to be among murderers, thugs and thieves,'' the judge said. ``There isn't anything about it that's supposed to be fun.'' Schaeffer did not mince words during an almost half-hour long oral ruling from the bench.

[ September 10, 2003, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: greatday ]