Why bring up hardening?

You said your argument was based on Romans 9:19-24. What I posted relates directly to that passage. Just admit it, Bill, you have no Biblical answer to John Gill's commentary. Therefore, you ignore dealing with it.

Revealing.

But it doesn't matter what a Calvinist posts, you are going to disparage what we say or quote. Frankly, I post not so much for your benefit as for the benefit of honest truth seekers who peruse this forum but who do not post.

 

And there is nothing any of us could post that would change your mind. If the apostle Paul posted to this board and refuted your objection to total depravity, I doubt you would even agree with him.

Wait a minute, that's right, the Bible already refutes your objection to total depravity. And, see, you don't agree with the Bible.

 

Thanks for proving my point!

Okay, Bill, lay out for us what would have to be very specifically said to refute and then we'll see if we can come up with that. Otherwise you'll just keep moving the goalpost regardless of what is posted or who is quoted, and you'll keep saying that your false teaching is unrefuted. So, belly up to the bar and tell us specifically what would have to be said for you to admit that your teaching is refuted.

 

So, in other words, there is nothing anyone can say that you will accept as refuting your teaching. Therefore, there is no point in trying.

Now that we have settled this issue, if you go over to www.dougstephan.com/dogs.shtml, toward the bottom of the page you will see pictures of two of my dogs, Ossum and Gracie, on the Doug Stephan Radio Show website. Two corrections - Ossum is a he not a she and Arkansas' abbreviation is AR, not AK.

 

AK. oo, oo, I know, I know, pick me, pick me, I just left a U.S. and Candadian geography class pick me, pick me

btw, beautiful dogs.

 

Thanks, Brother Dallas. I have 7 dogs and I love all of my furkids.

 

Bro. Bill, my post do not suit your taste, so you castigate them as having no substance. That's fine, good sir, for those ad hominem statements do not injure me in the least, nor will they.

You still have not addressed the contradictions in Arminianism, friend.

Explain in clear terms your objections to "total depravity" (the long diatribes of yours are useless).

Then explain "original sin" and its effects on all men.

Then explain "the atonement" and its purpose and extent.

Then explain "perseverance of the saints" from a Biblical perspective.

Bill, I've made it plain in previous posts that I'm not hyper-calvinists but moderately calvinists. Inductively, I understand passages speaking of God's sovereign control, of man's total spiritual inability, and of God's grace being extended to fallen man and of man's choosing Jesus as Saviour and Lord.

In the scheme of TULIP, I'm persuaded of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Perseverance of the saints. I'm still studying on Limited Atonement and Irresistable Grace, though I favor them when defined in contexts.

The following statements of belief have been adopted by the BMA (Baptist Missionary Association of America), of which I am a member. I agree with these statements. Please note the moderate position.

V. DEPRAVITY

Although man was created in the image of God (Gen. 1:26: 2:17), he fell through sin and that image was marred (Rom. 5:12: James 3:9). In his unregenerate state, he is void of spiritual life, is under the influence of the devil, and lacks any power to save himself (Eph. 2:1-3: John 1:13). The sin nature has been transmitted to every member of the human race, the man Jesus Christ alone being excepted (Rom. 3:23; I Peter 2:22). Because of the sin nature, man possesses no divine life and is essentially and unchangeably depraved apart from divine grace (Rom. 3:10-19; Jer. 17:9).

VI. SALVATION

A. The Meaning of Salvation-Salvation is the gracious work of God whereby He delivers undeserving sinners from sin and its results (Matt. 1:21; Eph. 2:8,9). In justification He declares righteous all who put faith in Christ as Savior (Rom. 3:20-22), giving them
freedom from condemnation, peace with God, and full assurance of future glorification (Rom. 3:24-26).

B. The Way of Salvation-Salvation is based wholly on the grace of God apart from works (Titus 3:5; Eph. 2:9). Anyone who will exercise repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved (Acts 16:30-32: Luke 24:47; Rom. 10:17).

C.The Provision of Salvation-Christ died for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29:3:16; I John 2:1, 2). Through His blood, atonement is made without respect of persons (I Tim. 2:4- 6). All sinners can be saved by this gracious provision (Heb. 2:9; John 3:18).

VII. DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY AND HUMAN FREEDOM

God's sovereignty and man's freedom are two inseparable factors in the salvation experience (Eph. 2:4-6). The two Bible truths are in no way contradictory, but they are amazingly
complementary in the great salvation so freely provided. God, in His sovereignty purposed, planned and executed salvation in eternity while man's freedom enables him to make a personal choice in time, either to receive this salvation and be saved, or to reject it and be damned (Eph. 1:9-12; 1:13, 14; John 1:12, 13).

VIII. SANCTIFICATION

All believers are set apart unto God (Heb. 10;12-14) at the time of their regeneration (I Cor. 6:11). They should grow in grace (II Peter 1:5-8) by allowing the Holy Spirit to apply God's Word to their lives (I Peter 2:2), conforming them to the principles of divine righteousness (Rom. 12:1. 2; I Thess. 4:3-7) and making them partakers of the holiness of God (II Cor. 7:1, I Peter 1:15, 16).

IX. SECURITY

All believers are eternally secure in Jesus Christ (John 10:24-30; Rom. 8:35-39). They are born again (John 3:3-5; I John 5:1; I Peter 1:23), made new creatures in Christ (II Cor. 5:17; II Peter 1:4), and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9; I John 4:4), enabling their perseverance in good works (Eph. 2:10). A special providence watches over them (Rom. 6:28; I Cor. 10:13), and they are kept by the power of God (Phil. 1:6,2:12. 13; I Peter 1:3-5; Heb. 13:5).

BTW, I have no doubt that both of us will be in heaven with Jesus someday and that both of us vigorously preach the good news today. But I doubt that we truly understand one another on the issue that occupied so much of our attention.

rufus

 

Hi Ken;
A quote from you;
-----------------------------------------------
So, belly up to the bar and tell us specifically what would have to be said for you to admit that your teaching is refuted.
-----------------------------------------------
My Response;
Sounds as if you've been standing at the bar a long time soaking it up.Which is maybe why you don't know when you have been defeated.
Becareful you might fall and hurt yourself hold on to that bar real tight.
Romanbear

 

That is correct. Calvinists typically err when it comes to Romans 9.

Interesting that in Romans 9 it is the "Chosen" that are failing and so God shows "mercy" not only on the "Sovereignly Chosen nation" (The Jews) but ALSO on the Gentiles.

Paul emphasized the failure of the sovereignly chosen again in Romans 11.

And you are correct that in Romans 9 it is "hardening" that we see happening. And you can't harden an already totally hardened system.

But the reason that you have that room to harden is not that there is "inherent good in the sinful nature" it is that the "drawing of ALL MANKIND" and the "Emnity between the woman and the serpent" are supernatural principles separating the sinful depraved nature from its natural point of total depravity.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BTW - on the point of security and perserverance of the saints.

Arminians that accept the Matt 18 principle of "forgiveness revoked" can KNOW they are saved today. 5 Pt Calvinists can't even know THAT until they perservere until the end - thus "not" retro-deleting their present assurance.

In Christ,

Bob