Why bring up hardening?

[William C]

for who hath resisted his will? This is said in support of the former, and means not God's will of command, which is always resisted more or less, by wicked men and devils; but his will of purpose, his counsels and decrees, which stand firm and sure, and can never be resisted, so as to be frustrated and made void. This the objector takes up, and improves against God; that since he hardens whom he will, and there is no resisting his will, the fault then can never lie in them who are hardened, and who act as such, but in God; and therefore it must be unreasonable in him to be angry with, blame, accuse, and condemn persons for being and doing that, which he himself wills them to be and do. Let the disputers of this world, the reasoners of the present age, come and see their own faces, and read the whole strength of their objections, in this wicked man's; and from whence we may be assured, that since the objections are the same, the doctrine must be the same that is objected to: and this we gain however by it, that the doctrines of particular and personal election and reprobation, were the doctrines of the apostle; since against no other, with any face, or under any pretence, could such an objection be formed: next follows the apostle's answer.

Here is where Gill makes his mistake. He equates Total Depravity with hardening. That is reason I started this post, to show the root of the Calvinistic error.

He equates God's "hardening" with "personal election and reprobation." That is wrong! Hardening is not reprobation. Hardening was a temporary and purposeful condition of those who had continually refused to come to God, not sure condemnation. The Jews that God elected not to recieve this hardening (ie the apostles) was not in reference to salvation alone but to the noble purpose of being a divine messenger. As Romans 11 shows those who are hardened could later be saved through the apostles teaching but they would never be apostles like those who were chosen for that purpose.

Gill assumes that the diatribe objection in this passage is only one that Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity and election would afford. This is a false assumption. Paul is responding to the doctrine the judicial hardening of Israel, not Total Depravity. Both would afford this objection no doubt but for much different reasons.

Total Depravity is unfounded and unsupported. Hardening is justified because of the continual rebellion of those who were hardened despite God's patience and longing to save them.

Therefore, the objection of Total Depravity still stands unrefuted!

 

[KenH]

You said your argument was based on Romans 9:19-24. What I posted relates directly to that passage. Just admit it, Bill, you have no Biblical answer to John Gill's commentary. Therefore, you ignore dealing with it.

Revealing.

But it doesn't matter what a Calvinist posts, you are going to disparage what we say or quote. Frankly, I post not so much for your benefit as for the benefit of honest truth seekers who peruse this forum but who do not post.

 

[William C]

You were apparently writing your post before you saw mine. You can clearly see that Gill makes the very mistake that I point out to introduce this thread.

He equates hardening and Total Depravity.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Therefore, the objection of Total Depravity still stands unrefuted!

And there is nothing any of us could post that would change your mind. If the apostle Paul posted to this board and refuted your objection to total depravity, I doubt you would even agree with him.

Wait a minute, that's right, the Bible already refutes your objection to total depravity. And, see, you don't agree with the Bible.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Therefore, the objection of Total Depravity still stands unrefuted!

And there is nothing any of us could post that would change your mind. If the apostle Paul posted to this board and refuted your objection to total depravity, I doubt you would even agree with him.

Wait a minute, that's right, the Bible already refutes your objection to total depravity. And, see, you don't agree with the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi MUMBO have you seen JUMBO?

Ken, deal with the argument! Gill, like the rest of you equate Paul's response to the objection of God's hardening most of Israel and calling the Gentiles to Arminians objection of God's binding all men under Total Depravity and saving certain individuals from that condition. This is still unrefuted.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
This is still unrefuted.

Thanks for proving my point!

Okay, Bill, lay out for us what would have to be very specifically said to refute and then we'll see if we can come up with that. Otherwise you'll just keep moving the goalpost regardless of what is posted or who is quoted, and you'll keep saying that your false teaching is unrefuted. So, belly up to the bar and tell us specifically what would have to be said for you to admit that your teaching is refuted.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
This is still unrefuted.

Thanks for proving my point!

Okay, Bill, lay out for us what would have to be very specifically said to refute and then we'll see if we can come up with that. Otherwise you'll just keep moving the goalpost regardless of what is posted or who is quoted, and you'll keep saying that your false teaching is unrefuted. So, belly up to the bar and tell us specifically what would have to be said for you to admit that your teaching is refuted. </font>[/QUOTE] (This is a face of a frustrated man)

I started this thread by claiming that Calvinists wrongly equate hardening and total depravity. You copy and paste an example of John Gill doing that very thing. I called you on it and you say, "Thanks for proving my point."

I don't understand that!

Gill equates the objection to God's hardening with the objection to Calvinism. Why? Because he wrongly thinks that God's hardening is equivelent to his not choosing them for salvation. That is not so!

Look at Romans 11 and you will see that some of those who were hardened in chaper 9 will believe after the hardening is over. This passage CANNOT be applied to support Calvinistic dogma, it is talking about HARDENING.

 

[William C]

So, belly up to the bar and tell us specifically what would have to be said for you to admit that your teaching is refuted.

If you are going to use a passage that answers objections to hardening to respond to objections to Total Depravity then you need to show me how hardening and Total Depravity are one in the same.

 

[KenH]

So, in other words, there is nothing anyone can say that you will accept as refuting your teaching. Therefore, there is no point in trying.

Now that we have settled this issue, if you go over to www.dougstephan.com/dogs.shtml, toward the bottom of the page you will see pictures of two of my dogs, Ossum and Gracie, on the Doug Stephan Radio Show website. Two corrections - Ossum is a he not a she and Arkansas' abbreviation is AR, not AK.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
So, in other words, there is nothing anyone can say that you will accept as refuting your teaching. Therefore, there is no point in trying.

For you Ken, no, there is no point in trying.

 

[Frogman]

AK.

oo, oo, I know, I know, pick me, pick me, I just left a U.S. and Candadian geography class

pick me, pick me

btw, beautiful dogs.

 

[KenH]

Thanks, Brother Dallas. I have 7 dogs and I love all of my furkids.

 

[rufus]

Bro. Bill, my post do not suit your taste, so you castigate them as having no substance. That's fine, good sir, for those ad hominem statements do not injure me in the least, nor will they.

You still have not addressed the contradictions in Arminianism, friend.

Explain in clear terms your objections to "total depravity" (the long diatribes of yours are useless).

Then explain "original sin" and its effects on all men.

Then explain "the atonement" and its purpose and extent.

Then explain "perseverance of the saints" from a Biblical perspective.

Bill, I've made it plain in previous posts that I'm not hyper-calvinists but moderately calvinists. Inductively, I understand passages speaking of God's sovereign control, of man's total spiritual inability, and of God's grace being extended to fallen man and of man's choosing Jesus as Saviour and Lord.

In the scheme of TULIP, I'm persuaded of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Perseverance of the saints. I'm still studying on Limited Atonement and Irresistable Grace, though I favor them when defined in contexts.

The following statements of belief have been adopted by the BMA (Baptist Missionary Association of America), of which I am a member. I agree with these statements. Please note the moderate position.

V. DEPRAVITY

Although man was created in the image of God (Gen. 1:26: 2:17), he fell through sin and that image was marred (Rom. 5:12: James 3:9). In his unregenerate state, he is void of spiritual life, is under the influence of the devil, and lacks any power to save himself (Eph. 2:1-3: John 1:13). The sin nature has been transmitted to every member of the human race, the man Jesus Christ alone being excepted (Rom. 3:23; I Peter 2:22). Because of the sin nature, man possesses no divine life and is essentially and unchangeably depraved apart from divine grace (Rom. 3:10-19; Jer. 17:9).

VI. SALVATION

A. The Meaning of Salvation-Salvation is the gracious work of God whereby He delivers undeserving sinners from sin and its results (Matt. 1:21; Eph. 2:8,9). In justification He declares righteous all who put faith in Christ as Savior (Rom. 3:20-22), giving them
freedom from condemnation, peace with God, and full assurance of future glorification (Rom. 3:24-26).

B. The Way of Salvation-Salvation is based wholly on the grace of God apart from works (Titus 3:5; Eph. 2:9). Anyone who will exercise repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved (Acts 16:30-32: Luke 24:47; Rom. 10:17).

C.The Provision of Salvation-Christ died for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29:3:16; I John 2:1, 2). Through His blood, atonement is made without respect of persons (I Tim. 2:4- 6). All sinners can be saved by this gracious provision (Heb. 2:9; John 3:18).

VII. DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY AND HUMAN FREEDOM

God's sovereignty and man's freedom are two inseparable factors in the salvation experience (Eph. 2:4-6). The two Bible truths are in no way contradictory, but they are amazingly
complementary in the great salvation so freely provided. God, in His sovereignty purposed, planned and executed salvation in eternity while man's freedom enables him to make a personal choice in time, either to receive this salvation and be saved, or to reject it and be damned (Eph. 1:9-12; 1:13, 14; John 1:12, 13).

VIII. SANCTIFICATION

All believers are set apart unto God (Heb. 10;12-14) at the time of their regeneration (I Cor. 6:11). They should grow in grace (II Peter 1:5-8) by allowing the Holy Spirit to apply God's Word to their lives (I Peter 2:2), conforming them to the principles of divine righteousness (Rom. 12:1. 2; I Thess. 4:3-7) and making them partakers of the holiness of God (II Cor. 7:1, I Peter 1:15, 16).

IX. SECURITY

All believers are eternally secure in Jesus Christ (John 10:24-30; Rom. 8:35-39). They are born again (John 3:3-5; I John 5:1; I Peter 1:23), made new creatures in Christ (II Cor. 5:17; II Peter 1:4), and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9; I John 4:4), enabling their perseverance in good works (Eph. 2:10). A special providence watches over them (Rom. 6:28; I Cor. 10:13), and they are kept by the power of God (Phil. 1:6,2:12. 13; I Peter 1:3-5; Heb. 13:5).

BTW, I have no doubt that both of us will be in heaven with Jesus someday and that both of us vigorously preach the good news today. But I doubt that we truly understand one another on the issue that occupied so much of our attention.

rufus

 

[romanbear]

Hi Ken;
A quote from you;
-----------------------------------------------
So, belly up to the bar and tell us specifically what would have to be said for you to admit that your teaching is refuted.
-----------------------------------------------
My Response;
Sounds as if you've been standing at the bar a long time soaking it up.Which is maybe why you don't know when you have been defeated.

Becareful you might fall and hurt yourself hold on to that bar real tight.

Romanbear

 

[William C]

Originally posted by rufus:

The following statements of belief have been adopted by the BMA (Baptist Missionary Association of America), of which I am a member. I agree with these statements. Please note the moderate position.

V. DEPRAVITY

Although man was created in the image of God (Gen. 1:26: 2:17), he fell through sin and that image was marred (Rom. 5:12: James 3:9). In his unregenerate state, he is void of spiritual life, is under the influence of the devil, and lacks any power to save himself (Eph. 2:1-3: John 1:13). The sin nature has been transmitted to every member of the human race, the man Jesus Christ alone being excepted (Rom. 3:23; I Peter 2:22). Because of the sin nature, man possesses no divine life and is essentially and unchangeably depraved apart from divine grace (Rom. 3:10-19; Jer. 17:9).

VI. SALVATION

A. The Meaning of Salvation-Salvation is the gracious work of God whereby He delivers undeserving sinners from sin and its results (Matt. 1:21; Eph. 2:8,9). In justification He declares righteous all who put faith in Christ as Savior (Rom. 3:20-22), giving them
freedom from condemnation, peace with God, and full assurance of future glorification (Rom. 3:24-26).

B. The Way of Salvation-Salvation is based wholly on the grace of God apart from works (Titus 3:5; Eph. 2:9). Anyone who will exercise repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved (Acts 16:30-32: Luke 24:47; Rom. 10:17).

C.The Provision of Salvation-Christ died for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29:3:16; I John 2:1, 2). Through His blood, atonement is made without respect of persons (I Tim. 2:4- 6). All sinners can be saved by this gracious provision (Heb. 2:9; John 3:18).

VII. DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY AND HUMAN FREEDOM

God's sovereignty and man's freedom are two inseparable factors in the salvation experience (Eph. 2:4-6). The two Bible truths are in no way contradictory, but they are amazingly
complementary in the great salvation so freely provided. God, in His sovereignty purposed, planned and executed salvation in eternity while man's freedom enables him to make a personal choice in time, either to receive this salvation and be saved, or to reject it and be damned (Eph. 1:9-12; 1:13, 14; John 1:12, 13).

VIII. SANCTIFICATION

All believers are set apart unto God (Heb. 10;12-14) at the time of their regeneration (I Cor. 6:11). They should grow in grace (II Peter 1:5-8) by allowing the Holy Spirit to apply God's Word to their lives (I Peter 2:2), conforming them to the principles of divine righteousness (Rom. 12:1. 2; I Thess. 4:3-7) and making them partakers of the holiness of God (II Cor. 7:1, I Peter 1:15, 16).

IX. SECURITY

All believers are eternally secure in Jesus Christ (John 10:24-30; Rom. 8:35-39). They are born again (John 3:3-5; I John 5:1; I Peter 1:23), made new creatures in Christ (II Cor. 5:17; II Peter 1:4), and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9; I John 4:4), enabling their perseverance in good works (Eph. 2:10). A special providence watches over them (Rom. 6:28; I Cor. 10:13), and they are kept by the power of God (Phil. 1:6,2:12. 13; I Peter 1:3-5; Heb. 13:5).

BTW, I have no doubt that both of us will be in heaven with Jesus someday and that both of us vigorously preach the good news today. But I doubt that we truly understand one another on the issue that occupied so much of our attention.

Rufus, I have no problem with any of this. (I do have some questions about eternal security, I don't have any hard and fast convictions on that point so I wouldn't dogmatically disagree with anything written here.)

 

[William C]

Rufus,

It may scare you a bit to think that you and I could both agree on this document, but don't let it throw you. I'm sure those who wrote this were careful in their wording to not exclude individuals from both sides of this issue.

Notice on the issue of depravity that nothing is mentioned about man's inability to respond to God's general call to salvation. That is the problem most of us have with Total Depravity. I believe in original sin and the effects of the fall. I just don't agree that God's calling through the power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the Apostles and the Holy Scriptures cannot be effective without a second irresistable calling. I don't see that taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Bill --
2. Almost every Calvinists turns to Romans 9:19-24 as a response.

The problem is that this passage is not about Total Depravity. As verse 20 clearly points out, this passage is about HARDENING.

That is correct. Calvinists typically err when it comes to Romans 9.

Interesting that in Romans 9 it is the "Chosen" that are failing and so God shows "mercy" not only on the "Sovereignly Chosen nation" (The Jews) but ALSO on the Gentiles.

Paul emphasized the failure of the sovereignly chosen again in Romans 11.

And you are correct that in Romans 9 it is "hardening" that we see happening. And you can't harden an already totally hardened system.

But the reason that you have that room to harden is not that there is "inherent good in the sinful nature" it is that the "drawing of ALL MANKIND" and the "Emnity between the woman and the serpent" are supernatural principles separating the sinful depraved nature from its natural point of total depravity.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BTW - on the point of security and perserverance of the saints.

Arminians that accept the Matt 18 principle of "forgiveness revoked" can KNOW they are saved today. 5 Pt Calvinists can't even know THAT until they perservere until the end - thus "not" retro-deleting their present assurance.

In Christ,

Bob