Minimum Education

Rhet, I personally think this old argument should be put to bed or out to pasture. Speculating on what might have been will never be more than that -- just speculation. One side could speculate on those who would have been better with a formal education, and the other side can speculate on how much better someone might have been if their education had not ruined them! All of us can scrounge up some example to try to prove our point one way or the better, and none will be the better satisfied because of it.

So I guess I have a point in this. We're all free to have our opinions about the utility of education and the proper way/ways to get one. But when it comes to particular individuals who have run well, it is best to thank God that they fought the fight, kept the faith and finished the course, and expect that they will hear, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" -- rather than speculate on what could have been if...

 

Is what you say from Scripture?

if you recall a brother has something against you. You go and make it right. Does not say how they got that way.

 

Hi, Rhet. I don't know that you're referring to me, but just to be safe, let me assure you that I'm not angry.

Let me follow up to also clarify that I wasn't suggesting your OP was out of order or that the thread should be shut down.

The point I failed to make was singular in nature -- I think it is pointless to "what if" what someone might have done. Now, if we're doing it to entertain ourselves or exercise our imagine, that's one thing. But it will not prove a point in the "minimum education" discussion.

Let's take Spurgeon for an example. Most folks indicate that he did not have a high level of formal education, and while I can't confirm that, I'll accept it for argument's sake. So in reference to Spurgeon we could ask, "What could he have done with more education?" I say rather, thank God he did what he did. We'll never know what he could have done (at least this side of eternity; and it is my opinion that God is not going to have a "movie screen" in eternity to show us a bunch of "what ifs" that did not happen).

 

Rhet,

Your assinine remarks are based on the absurdly ridiculous assumption that lack of formal education = ignorance. Doubtless, there are many men who have no formal education who are ignorant. But they are not ignorant because they lack formal education; they are ingorant becuase they don't study the word of God.

Likewise, there are many with formal education who, though they may possess a lot of knowledge, are still ignorant when it comes to understanding the things of God.

The knowledge required for the work of the ministry is a knowledge of the Scriptures. That can be had without a formal education, and in my opinion can be had better without a formal education; because the formal educational establishment will invariably present "knowledge" with a bent, and it is most usually a bent towards heresy and infidelity.

Frankly, for what little good that formal theological "training" (as if a man could be "trained" to be a pastor in the same respect as a doctor or an engineer or a trick dog) may have done, it has done vastly more in terms of evil. The theological educational establishments of this world have been the seed beds and manure spreaders of every vile, ungodly, and sordid heresy imaginable.

God deliver the Baptists from all such and may He raise up men who will educate themselves in the precious words of Christ, untainted by the leaven of modernistic theological education.

Mark Osgatharp

[ January 24, 2006, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]

 

"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were ignorant and unlearned men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus."

"Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment and righteousness in the earth; for in these things I delight, saith the Lord."

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."


Mark Osgatharp

 

Rhetorician,

Why do you assume that because someone disagrees with you that they have some sort of problem? {SNIP}

For the record, you haven't offended me at all. {SNIP}

You started out this thread with an "offensive tone". Then you accused others of being "angry" when they disagreed with you. {SNIP}
So why don't you {SNIP} address the Scriptures I brought into the discussion? In light of your theory, why don't you explain to my why Jesus Christ hand picked "ignorant and unlearned men" to be His spokesman?

Mark Osgatharp

[ January 25, 2006, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

Okay, one warning: stop the personal attacks. I will have no further patience and will close this thread immediately and recommend that punitive measures be taken by the administrative council per Baptist Board rules.

 

Please remember that Spurgeon and Moody, while not formally trained, were not void of training. They stuided rigorously on their own. If someone cannot get a formal ministerial education, somehow there should be a mentoring to see that men get the training in an informal way. A man who refuses any kind of mentoring or training is not fit for the ministry, nor is he displaying a call from God.

 

TomVols,

While you were snipping my post all to pieces, why didn't you deal with Rhets? Such as,

Or,

Or,

Or,

Looks like the old double standard is rearing it's ugly head again.


Mark Osgatharp

 

Does anyone care to comment on how to reconcile the mandatory seminary theory with the following Scripture found in I John:

Mark Osgatharp

 

Hi Mark,
Great posts.
Anxiously awaiting a reply to this one.

I'm also wondering why Rhetorician made no mention of the other Scriptures you presented.

 

God used a donkey. Do you equate yourself with that? I would hope not. A pastor will need more knowledge than that.

If all you aim for is enough knowledge to be saved that isn't much ambition.

It is a puddle of knowledge about the Bible called ignorance. A pastor muct have a correct knowledge of scripture in light of its historical context to be able to teach and lead the people well.

 

Tom, I don't think many on either side of this discussion will differ with much of what you say here. I would differ on whether mentoring is a second choice for those who cannot get formal training. All the New Testament training of which I am aware was "on-the-job" mentoring and not formal, so I could never consider it the second choice.

One thing to which I strenously object is when not going to seminary is equated with refusing any kind of mentoring or training (which I don't think you are saying). But I do hear that argument from time to time.

 

The trained recognize ignorance. The untrained are unable to prove the ignorant wrong.

 

Every trained person was ignorant and untrained at one time. They are the those who know the difference.

 

Huh? Please translate. Thanks.

 

Huh? Please translate. Thanks. </font>[/QUOTE]The person who was born untrained and has received training is the person who know the difference between training and being untrained.

 

Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Mark,

First, I doubt that any of us are proposing mandatory seminary training. However, I would insist upon mandatory training, whether it be formally through a college or seminary or informally by way of being mentored by a seasoned pastor.

Second, the verse which you use (1 John 2:27) is in no wise dealing with whether or not the minister should be trained for the ministry. John writes that there are false teachers trying to deceive the brethren (1 John 2:26). However, the illumination of the Holy Spirit abides in them [us], so that believers do not need anyone to what is the true faith and what is false.

John is not writing about ministerial training. For the sake of argument, though, let's say that John is saying that believers do not need to be taught the Word of God by others. That's what it appears if you discount the context. Then that would contradict a host of other scriptures, and we know that the Word is not self-contradictory. A look at some in Paul letters to Timothy will suffice to show the importance of teaching.

An elder must be "able to teach" (1 Tim 3:2).

Paul writes to Timothy to ". . . teach and urge these things. If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing . . ." (1 Tim 6:2-4).

Paul writes to Timothy, "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim 5:17).

Paul instructs, "I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths" (2 Tim 4:1-4).

Concerning the Word of God, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching" (2 Tim 3:16).

Concerning teaching those who would minister the Word to others, Paul writes, "You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me [have been taught?] in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men [isn't Paul telling Timothy to train others?] who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim 2:1-2).

Does a minister have to go to Bible college or seminary? Certainly not. Does a minister have to be trained in the Word? Absolutely. What I have seen too often, and perhaps it is different in your neck of the woods, but a good ole boy comes to Christ and has a heart for the Lord. Graced with the gift of gab and able to stand up and speak before others, folks tell him he ought to be a preacher. Soon, he is ordained and becomes a pastor himself. No training, no mentoring, little understanding of the whole counsel of God, but now he is preaching and teaching others. And the church suffers for it.

Bill