Thanks, GB. That is possibly generally true, but not universally so. Many untrained people know they are not trained, in both the spiritual and natural realms. For example, I am untrained in HVAC repair, and all attempts to make any repairs is strong evidence of that fact!
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Minimum Education
- Thread starter Rhetorician
- Start date
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
So what is there of "historical context" that a man cannot learn simply from studying the Bible? Is the Bible all sufficient as a rule of faith and practice, or is it not?
One of my major problems with the formal educational system is that they almost invariably claim to impart some knowledge that a man can't come by on his own. That, I believe, is exactly what John was addressing when he talked about those who would "seduce" God's people and asserted that they had "no need that man teach" them.
John certainly did not mean to rule out the importance of instruction in the Scriptures. He did mean to say that there is not some humanistic knowledge that a man can't get through the Scriptures by the power of the Holy Spirit.
If seminary was reduced to simply studying the Bible, then it would cease being seminary and would just be a bunch of men getting together to study the Bible. With that I would have no problem.
Mark Osgatharp
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
So where does seminary or college enter that equation? How does the study of psychology, profane history, sermonizing, speech, etc. fall under the category of "what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses"?
Mark Osgatharp
Think this thread is proving the point that snobbery has no up and down the nose to it, it is at both ends 
Personal opinion here guys, but I'd rather have the requirement of three years of seminary instead of the requirement of some of the reformers for preparation for the ministry - one of the many requirements was to memorize the New Testament
Since it is God that calls, and God that leads, and God that prepares I'd guess He can take care of it either way
Personal opinion here guys, but I'd rather have the requirement of three years of seminary instead of the requirement of some of the reformers for preparation for the ministry - one of the many requirements was to memorize the New Testament
Since it is God that calls, and God that leads, and God that prepares I'd guess He can take care of it either way
paidagogos
Active Member
So where does seminary or college enter that equation? How does the study of psychology, profane history, sermonizing, speech, etc. fall under the category of "what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses"?
Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]The extra-Biblical stuff is to keep you from being a complete ignoramus! How many times have I cringed at a preacher spouting nonsense because he didn’t know science, history, etc.? It made a very poor testimony for the Gospel. No wonder the unbelieving world thinks Christians are ignorant rednecks or religious snake oil salesmen. Too many of our spokesmen are not as knowledgeable as secular men and lose all credibility. And, this is in part due to an uninformed bias against education. On the other hand, you really don't seem very knowledgeable of what is actually taught at seminary.
paidagogos
Active Member
Broadus has stated, and I agree, that seminary is not mandatory. One can achieve the same thing, except for the influence of godly teachers, through study on his own. However, I question how many pastors actually study and become as knowledgeable as if they had gone to seminary? How many can the seminary opponents name that learned Greek and Hebrew on their own. How many read and studied more than needed for the next message or lesson? I predict that there are more who don't than do. Furthermore, these tends to be gaps in self-study since the student has no one to guide who has gone this way before.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
So people who haven't been to seminary (or college) are complete ignoramuses?
No man should spout nonsense about things he knows nothing about. I suppose we've all been guilty of it, but it is a terrible thing nonetheless.
However, that doesn't address the issue at hand at all. If a man is knowledgeable in the Scriptures he can preach the Scriptures, which is what God called him to do, and leave the science and history to those who do know something about it.
Having said that, I also note that many who are throughly "educated" in "science" and "history" are spouting nonsense for the simple reason that a lot of what passes as science and history is just made up tripe made to sound good by the educational establishment. For example, the theory of evolution. For another example, the theory that the Baptist churches were founded by John Smyth in the 17th century.
What sort of statement is "ignorant rednecks"? As you really so sheltered as to think that "redneck" = "ignorance"?
"Knowledgeable" in what? All the stuff that the educational establishment says a man must know to be dubbed "knowledgable"?
Mark Osgatharp
Points to ponder:
Whereas, the world is so technologically advanced;
Whereas, our people are mobile and move about more and more;
Whereas, with many people within our churches and outside our churches who are highly educated in so many fields;
Whereas, being a minister of the Gospel is just not the simple "country Pastor's role" any longer (even in the country);
Whereas, there will more than likely be "Doctors," "Lawyers," and "Indian Chiefs" in our congregations;
Whereas, many of these professionals will have multiple degrees in their own disciplines;
Whereas, God has called us to be the prophetic voice within the church and to speak His righteousness to those without His church;
Does it not follow axiomatically that:
The highest calling demands the best not the least formal education & mentoring.
Those to whom we minister, especially professionals in their own fields, should have someone who is on par with them in their fields.
A general and working knowledge, at least a conversational knowledge of the broader world is necessary to be informed so we can relate this Gospel to those within and those without.
There is more to being a "pastor/teacher" today than it was even one generation ago.
People have other problems that we as ministers need to be able to see, get them some other professional help, and not just tell them "to read the Bible and Pray and God will take care of it." Even though Bible Study and prayer work some of the time, they do not always work alone in a vacuum.
That there are great men, great movements, great revivals, great church history events and people, great secular historical events and people, the Biblical Languages, technological advances, great philolophers, great orators; and many other disciplines, people, schools of thought, and such that cry out to be heard and brought to our people in our everyday life and from the pulpit.
It seems that formal education &/or mentoring demand that a 21st Century pastor be a "Renaissance (sp) Man."
rd
Whereas, the world is so technologically advanced;
Whereas, our people are mobile and move about more and more;
Whereas, with many people within our churches and outside our churches who are highly educated in so many fields;
Whereas, being a minister of the Gospel is just not the simple "country Pastor's role" any longer (even in the country);
Whereas, there will more than likely be "Doctors," "Lawyers," and "Indian Chiefs" in our congregations;
Whereas, many of these professionals will have multiple degrees in their own disciplines;
Whereas, God has called us to be the prophetic voice within the church and to speak His righteousness to those without His church;
Does it not follow axiomatically that:
The highest calling demands the best not the least formal education & mentoring.
Those to whom we minister, especially professionals in their own fields, should have someone who is on par with them in their fields.
A general and working knowledge, at least a conversational knowledge of the broader world is necessary to be informed so we can relate this Gospel to those within and those without.
There is more to being a "pastor/teacher" today than it was even one generation ago.
People have other problems that we as ministers need to be able to see, get them some other professional help, and not just tell them "to read the Bible and Pray and God will take care of it." Even though Bible Study and prayer work some of the time, they do not always work alone in a vacuum.
That there are great men, great movements, great revivals, great church history events and people, great secular historical events and people, the Biblical Languages, technological advances, great philolophers, great orators; and many other disciplines, people, schools of thought, and such that cry out to be heard and brought to our people in our everyday life and from the pulpit.
It seems that formal education &/or mentoring demand that a 21st Century pastor be a "Renaissance (sp) Man."
rd
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Rhet good post. Allow me to duck with you.
Another point to ponder:
It seems that the great Apostle Paul had equipped himself to be one of the greatest of Jewish rulers. And in God's sovereignty, he was even given Roman Citizenship.
With his gifts, calling, cultural knowledge, multi-level "world views," his understandings of Greek and Roman philosophy, his understandings of the Greek and Roman poets, the inner workings of his own Roman standing, his ability to earn his own living "making tents," his insightful understnadings of the Hebrew Scripture & customs & culture, all coupled with HIS EDUCATIONAL backgrounds; he was able to go more places, speak in more contexts, and have more of an impact than those "unlearned and ignorant" fishermen.
Oh, by the by; those with little cultural knowledge outside of their own little Jewish universe had a hard time in the beginning understanding that this was a "Gospel for the world." (See: Galatians and the Acts Church Council for details).
I know God is sovereign and all of that, but Paul could not have been used to spread the Gospel to such far reaches if he had not had such an outstanding religious and secular EDUCATION!
It seems to me!
rd
It seems that the great Apostle Paul had equipped himself to be one of the greatest of Jewish rulers. And in God's sovereignty, he was even given Roman Citizenship.
With his gifts, calling, cultural knowledge, multi-level "world views," his understandings of Greek and Roman philosophy, his understandings of the Greek and Roman poets, the inner workings of his own Roman standing, his ability to earn his own living "making tents," his insightful understnadings of the Hebrew Scripture & customs & culture, all coupled with HIS EDUCATIONAL backgrounds; he was able to go more places, speak in more contexts, and have more of an impact than those "unlearned and ignorant" fishermen.
Oh, by the by; those with little cultural knowledge outside of their own little Jewish universe had a hard time in the beginning understanding that this was a "Gospel for the world." (See: Galatians and the Acts Church Council for details).
I know God is sovereign and all of that, but Paul could not have been used to spread the Gospel to such far reaches if he had not had such an outstanding religious and secular EDUCATION!
It seems to me!
rd
I disagree. It wasn't Saul's education which made him persecute believers. It was his unregenerate heart which was deluded into thinking he could possible satisfy God's holy law by himself.
The education which Saul had received was used by God as an aid in traveling on his missionary journeys, interacting with the locals, evangelizing, understanding the law and responding to it rightly, organizing churches, etc.
We as pastors don't live in a Christian ghetto and neither do our people. We must be grounded in the Word---that's a given. We must also aid our people in responding biblically to the insidious philosophies and practices which come at them daily via different media. A good education helps a person learn how to learn. It is not the all in all. The student is always a student, and a good, solid, biblical education will equip him to continue his "education" long after he graduates.
I wonder if some react so strongly to the idea of seminary because they have never been and feel they must justify their not going. Maybe someone will start a thread with something like "I did not go to Bible college or seminary and here's why."
I think it's a mistake to claim that one doesn't need training for the ministry because one has the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:26-27 cannot be used for support. Paul's writing against the wisdom of this world is not part of that equation, unless one wished to apply that to going to seminaries which deny the infallibility and authority of the Word (1 Cor 1:18ff.). An education under godly professors is not worldly wisdom.
One may say that one has the Bible and that is all one needs. What about the use, then, of Bible commentaries and other biblical aids?
Bill
buckster75
Member
Rhetorician
I am starting to get where you come from by your above post.
{SNIP}
Starting to get clearer now.
[ January 27, 2006, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: TomVols ]
I am starting to get where you come from by your above post.
{SNIP}
Starting to get clearer now.
[ January 27, 2006, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: TomVols ]
buckster75
Member
None of the Indian Chiefs I know would feel comfortable attending church with the attitude I sense coming from many here.
I think some of you may be misunderstanding the objections that have been raised. Going back to my original and main objection -- we should not add to or take away from what God requires.
Paul has been raised as an example, and I think that he obviously had much more "formal education" than the other apostles. But the Bible never distinguishes one above the other (either "vice or versa"). Also, it might be insightful to think about the fact that, in spite of Paul's education, the haughty philosophers at Mars Hill thought of Paul as a "seed-picker" (babbler, fool, possibly someone who picked up bits and pieces of knowledge randomly).
Paul has been raised as an example, and I think that he obviously had much more "formal education" than the other apostles. But the Bible never distinguishes one above the other (either "vice or versa"). Also, it might be insightful to think about the fact that, in spite of Paul's education, the haughty philosophers at Mars Hill thought of Paul as a "seed-picker" (babbler, fool, possibly someone who picked up bits and pieces of knowledge randomly).
One consideration is that those of us who esteem a quality, godly education do not see this as an "either/or" situation---that is either a good education or Holy Spirit calling and empowerment. Rather, it is a "both/and." A good education is in no way the only or even the most important criterion for a successful minister. One's personal persuit of godliness, one's dependence upon God to change lives, one's humility is ascribing all glory to God and not one's own ingenuity for whatever "success" may take place---these are obviously more important than a good education or training. Why must one choose one or the other?
I reiterate---go for the best training you can get, but don't leave the other virtues unattended.
Bill
I reiterate---go for the best training you can get, but don't leave the other virtues unattended.
Bill
buckster75
Member
The Holy Spirit equips us for meaningful and fruitful service in the church.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
A. What does advanced technology and speedier mobility have to do with the ministry?
B. Do you think people who don't have a formal education don't know about or use technology?
Do you think that country folk are, or used to be, "redneck ignoramuses"? Do you think there are no iqnoramus city dwellers? If not, what do you mean by "country Pastor's role" as opposed to something else?
Do you think metropolitan and cosmopolitan centers are a 21st century phenomena? If not, then why do you make such ridiculous statements?
A. How does ministering the gospel to a doctor, lawyer, or Indian chief differ from doing so to a pipeliner, farmer, or factory worker?
B. When you put all the doctors, lawyers, and Indian chiefs together, do you realize how low their ratio is - even in metropolitan areas - compared to other workers?
What, specifically, is it about being a degreed professional that mandates that the man who would minister to them be formally educated?
The man who would minister God's word must be knowledgable of God's word. He may or may not have formal education. He will doubtless have "mentors" if by "mentors" you mean other men to whom he turns for advice and counsel.
It has always been this way, in city or country, in every age.
Are you talking about professional car mechanics or professional dry cleaners?
A. Are you suggesting that those who have not been formally educated don't have a knowledge of the "broader world"?
B. I'm still trying to figure out why a doctor, lawyer or Indian chief needs a different sort of minister than a machine shop operator, Wal-Mart clerk, or scrap iron dealer.
Perhaps you could fill me in with some SPECIFIC details.
That is not a logical conclusion even if one accepts your ludicruos premises. Technology, city life, and jack-asses who think they can't learn something from men less educated than themselves have existed from time immemorial. Ministering the gospel does not differ one iota from what it did 2000 years ago.
I contend that every single spiritual problem that a man has is answered in the Scriptures. It is not just a matter of "read the Bible and pray." It is a matter of find out what the Bible says and apply it in your life, with prayer, and God will take care of it.
Mark Osgatharp