Is the lake of fire same as gehenna?

You're claiming that the Great White Throne Judgement does not include Christians (then you'd have to explain the clear emphasis on works) but includes the "righteous" who must be those who rejected Christ but did good works?

With one unsupported assumption you've cast aside the Biblical decription of the judgement (for ALL people) and the criterion by which we'll be judged, which is the faithfullness of our relationship with Jesus Christ.

Take away all the symbolism (rapture, tribulation, millenium) and you'll be able to grasp the real meaning of the end times: one physical death, one resurrection of the dead, one judgement, Heaven and one Hell.

 

"Hades is not hell...it's hades. Hell is gehenna, the lake of fire"


Both Hades and Gehenna are called hell.

The temporary abode of the souls of the wicked is called "hell" (Luke 16:23-24), the Greek is Hades.

The wicked will be resurrected at the Great White throne and cast into the Lake of Fire, the final judgement or second death.

The final judgment of the body and soul of the wicked is called "hell" (Mt. 5:22; 10:28), the Greek is Gehenna

Both places are called hell where the wicked will suffer torment and fire. Hades is temporary and Gehenna or Lake of Fire is eternal.

 

Brother, I was referring to the church of Laodicea which the majority of modern lukewarm western Christianity happens to resemble. Do you think the 7 churches have no application to modern believers? Superman's identity aside, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand.

Their worm vs their worms? What is your point? Do you believe there is a single flaming 'hellworm' that torments the lost for all eternity in the lake of fire? You just don't have a good handle on the grammar in the King James bible. Maybe you do need a new version.

Leviticus 26:43
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

It says their soul, not their souls! What dragon do you think your slaying?

 

So now, at least we see how your position affects the rest of the doctrines you hold. Salvation is not by faith in the finished work of Christ, but it is by faith and submission. So you must add your works to Christ's in order to achieve salvation. That sounds like UPC works salvation, and you call yourself a baptist?

 

One false doctrine I do not hold is the catholic doctrine of works salvation. As for Jesus rewarding according to works, of course I believe that.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

I'm certainly not going to apologize for believing the King James bible, but I can see how someone with your doctrinal bent might not like it.

 

I don't absolutely hold to a 'seven church ages' doctrine, I think it is interesting.

You plainly said that salvation was by faith and submission to Jesus. Paul said that we are saved by grace, not of works. How do you think that James' statement about faith without works reconciles your view with Paul's statement in Ephesians that we are saved by grace apart from works? How good do you reckon a man must be before he is worthy of God's grace?

2 Thessalonians 1:5
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

If this kingdom is God's eternal kingdom, then you must suffer and be accounted worthy of eternal life. As long as you hold on to your works for proof of your salvation, your assurance is ZERO, and I'd take that over credibility any day.

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

but not really, huh?

 

MAT 25:31-46 does not describe rewards. It describes eternal destiny, Heaven or Hell. The FINAL JUDGEMENT as does Rev 20.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: .......


Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary on MAT 25

MAT 25:32. And before him shall be gathered all nations--or, "all the nations." That this should be understood to mean the heathen nations, or all except believers in Christ, will seem amazing to any simple reader.

Yet this is the exposition of OLSHAUSEN, STIER, KEIL, ALFORD (though latterly with some diffidence), and of a number, though not all, of those who hold that Christ will come the second time before the millennium, and that the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air before His appearing.

Their chief argument is, the impossibility of any that ever knew the Lord Jesus wondering, at the Judgment Day, that they should be thought to have done--or left undone--anything "unto Christ." To that we shall advert when we come to it.

But here we may just say, that if this scene does not describe a personal, public, final judgment on men, according to the treatment they have given to Christ--and consequently men within the Christian pale--we shall have to consider again whether our Lord's teaching on the greatest themes of human interest does indeed possess that incomparable simplicity and transparency of meaning which, by universal consent, has been ascribed to it.

[ November 26, 2005, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: StraightAndNarrow ]

 

The KJV says it so much better, I think anyway...:

WOW!

 

That is interesting that you bring that up.

Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Matthew 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

As far as I can see, all but the very elect will be deceived and will receive the mark. Those that do not receive the mark are going to reign with Christ for a thousand years. We see in Rev 14 what will happen to those that do take the mark. To say that Matthew 25 is a judgment of unbelievers for their conduct toward God's people during the tribulation would be a little absurd, no? A man might take the mark and worship the beast, but be told to enter into the kingdom because he gave one of the Lord's brethren a cup of water?

 

Sometimes I wonder if you are reading what I type. And you're really hung up on this church age thing. Why don't you make a list of why the LOF has to be gehenna so I can address each of your arguments in order, again, instead of watching you hack to pieces your straw man?

You still haven't explained why the judgment in Matthew 25 is not at the Lord's second coming.
Matthew 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
When is the Son of man coming?

 

Mark 9:43 says never quenched, not eternal. We have already discussed the definitions of quench and unquenchable. You yourself said that hades would not be quenched either, but would be cast into the lake of fire. This is not an argument for your case.

Rev 20 says lake of fire, not gehenna. You do this everytime one or the other is spoken of. When the bible says lake of fire, you say gehenna. When your bible says gehenna, you say lake of fire. You have been well conditioned, but you haven't given a reason other than unquenchable which is no reason at all.

Now what about the timing in Matthew 25:31? Do you just assume it is talking about the great white throne because it says eternal fire? Or do you have a good reason to disregard the timeframe that is given, which is 'when the Son of man comes'?

 

On Mt. 9:43 the NIV has: "go into hell, where the fire never goes out." If the fire is never distinguished, it has to continue to burn forever so it will not go out. Easy to understand that the fire must burn eternally for it never to go out.

The timing of Mt 25:31 is the Second Coming and judgment of those who survived the Tribulation, the living goats who are cursed will be cast into the lake of fire a thousand years before the wicked dead join them after judgement at the Great White throne.

This same eternal fire is also the final destination "for the devil and his angels (41). Rev. 20:10 states this will happen at the end of the Millennium.

At the Second Coming the devil will be locked up for a thousand years in the Abyss, then released for a short time to deceive the nation at the end of it and cast into the eternal fire.

Hades is reserved only for the souls of the wicked dead until judged at the great white throne, never the devil and his angels.

 

I realize that when we hear the words 'never quenched' we have this idea of a fire that burns on and on forever. But we have a precedent in the old testament that we must take into account.

Jeremiah 17:27
27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

According to Matthew Henry, this prophecy was fulfilled by the Chaldeans in Jer 52:13. Is this fire burning still? Or does unquenchable fire merely mean that it will continue to burn until it has fulfilled the appointed time and purpose with no way of stopping it? Whether or not the fire 'goes out' is not even in question, if the fire is transferred into the lake of fire, it will continue to burn.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha currently suffering in the lake of fire?

As for the goats, I don't know if these could be 'wicked survivors' of the tribulation or not. I tend to think not, as in Rev 19 we see the following:
Revelation 19:20-21
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I don't think there will be any survivors.