Is the lake of fire same as gehenna?

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by robycop3:
As I said yeaterday, I will answer your message in the now-closed thread. BTW, this is NOT a "false doctrine" from any MV, it's a goof of your own private interpretation of the KJV.
_____________________________________________

James Newman: Those 'sheep' who are being told to enter into the kingdom after the millennium has already occurred are being judged for their works, correct? What works? Those that they committed during the time of the kingdom? Or are you saying that these may be unbelievers who were able to work for their salvation? Surely not!

Readerzz, see what I mean about a private interpretation?

Matthew 25:34-36
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

We know better than to believe anyone will be saved by these works. So who are these sheep?

The righteous of all ages. The Kingdom of God, while it now has citizens, is not yet occupied. THIS KOG IS NOT HEAVEN! it is upon the re-arranged earth, with no sea, with the New Jerusalem on earth as its capitol.

You're claiming that the Great White Throne Judgement does not include Christians (then you'd have to explain the clear emphasis on works) but includes the "righteous" who must be those who rejected Christ but did good works?

With one unsupported assumption you've cast aside the Biblical decription of the judgement (for ALL people) and the criterion by which we'll be judged, which is the faithfullness of our relationship with Jesus Christ.

Take away all the symbolism (rapture, tribulation, millenium) and you'll be able to grasp the real meaning of the end times: one physical death, one resurrection of the dead, one judgement, Heaven and one Hell.

 

[robycop3]

Straightandnarrow: You're claiming that the Great White Throne Judgement does not include Christians (then you'd have to explain the clear emphasis on works) but includes the "righteous" who must be those who rejected Christ but did good works?

Actually, I said the GWT judgment will include Christians from the millenium. The criterion for all is BELIEF IN & SUBMISSION TO CHRIST. Belief alone won't do; the DEVIL believes in Christ!

With one unsupported assumption you've cast aside the Biblical decription of the judgement (for ALL people) and the criterion by which we'll be judged, which is the faithfullness of our relationship with Jesus Christ.

You've totally misunderstood the issue. NOT ONCE, ANYWHERE have I ever advocated salvation in this age is by any other means than BELIEF IN & SUBMISSION TO JESUS.

Take away all the symbolism (rapture, tribulation, millenium) and you'll be able to grasp the real meaning of the end times: one physical death, one resurrection of the dead, one judgement, Heaven and one Hell.

Like the other main poster in this thread, your understanding has gone off course. Scripture PLAINLY says there will be TWO resurrections. Blessed are those who are included in the first resurrection, as it will be the resurrection of all the righteous dead from the beginning. "And the rest of the dead didn't live again till the thousand years were finished."

Hades is not hell...it's hades. Hell is gehenna, the lake of fire. That's the issue under discussion in this thread, and I'm awaiting some PROOF that gehenna is NOT the lake of fire.

 

[prophecynut]

"Hades is not hell...it's hades. Hell is gehenna, the lake of fire"


Both Hades and Gehenna are called hell.

The temporary abode of the souls of the wicked is called "hell" (Luke 16:23-24), the Greek is Hades.

The wicked will be resurrected at the Great White throne and cast into the Lake of Fire, the final judgement or second death.

The final judgment of the body and soul of the wicked is called "hell" (Mt. 5:22; 10:28), the Greek is Gehenna

Both places are called hell where the wicked will suffer torment and fire. Hades is temporary and Gehenna or Lake of Fire is eternal.

 

[robycop3]

I see you agree with me on that, PN. But I believe the KJV translators shoulda made a distinction between hades, tartarus, & gehenna. That failure to distinguish between them is the cause of this whole ball of confusion.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by robycop3:
Mr. Newman, all your dodging will NOT let you escape the fact that gehenna & the LOF are the same. And your little Kent-Superman supports MY view, not YOURS. Why? JESUS uses both gehenna & LOF when speaking of the same place. When He said gehenna as recorded in Matthew and Mark, and LOF in Revelation, what else was he talking about? We know hades isn't forever, but the LOF is. Clark Kent wears glasses to help conceal his ID as Supes, while JESUS wants everyone to know what hell is, so they can avoid it through Him. The LOF and gehenna are no more two separate places than Kent & Supes are different people in the comix.

Besides that, you've thoroughly discredited yourself with the below material. I thought for awhile you mighta had something worthwhile, but the below shows me you're just another poseur chock-fulla false doctrines, and not just the KJVO myth, verifying my claim that false breeds false.

This is much deeper than KJV vs modern versions. This is about laodicean Christianity that has lost the beginning of wisdom.

Thanx for revealing the source of your goofy false doctrines to the readership!

This shows us you believe that goofy and false SEVEN CHURCH-AGE doctrine. Know who spread it in the USA and Canada? You prolly do, but lemme inform the other readers...It was a charlatan named William Marrion Branham, a quack who made Jim Bakker look legit! Branham was mostly Oneness-Pentecostal, but he started some false doctrines uniquely his own. He did NOT believe in the Holy Trinity; he preached Modalism, that is, one Being who became Father, Son, or Holy Spirit as needed. He taught that baptism should be only in Jesus' name and not Father, Son, Hily Spirit as Jesus had said. he taught the blasphemous "serpent seed" false doctrine, as preached today by Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel. He proclaimed himself a major prophet, the return of Elijah, under Divine protection. However, his god musta taken a day off, as he was killed by a drunk driver in 1965.

Brother, I was referring to the church of Laodicea which the majority of modern lukewarm western Christianity happens to resemble. Do you think the 7 churches have no application to modern believers? Superman's identity aside, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand.

Play baseball? You sure out in left field with THIS gem:

It is hades. The worm that does not die is the man.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
You saw the rich man in hades in conscious torment, begging for a drop of water to cool his tongue. He is the worm that dieth not.

Excluding the Scripture, THIS IS ONENESS- PENTECOSTAL BUNK!!!!!!!!!!! Over & over, JESUS says "THEIR worm", not "their wormS". And Job is saying that to God we are as worms are to us, except that He DOES love us.

You call yourself a Baptist and believe Pentecostal garbage like this? Bah! Humbug!

Their worm vs their worms? What is your point? Do you believe there is a single flaming 'hellworm' that torments the lost for all eternity in the lake of fire? You just don't have a good handle on the grammar in the King James bible. Maybe you do need a new version.

Leviticus 26:43
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

It says their soul, not their souls! What dragon do you think your slaying?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by robycop3:
You've totally misunderstood the issue. NOT ONCE, ANYWHERE have I ever advocated salvation in this age is by any other means than BELIEF IN & SUBMISSION TO JESUS.

So now, at least we see how your position affects the rest of the doctrines you hold. Salvation is not by faith in the finished work of Christ, but it is by faith and submission. So you must add your works to Christ's in order to achieve salvation. That sounds like UPC works salvation, and you call yourself a baptist?

 

[robycop3]

Mr. Newman, you have a whole blort of false doctrines to answer for before you have any credibility at all to dare question anyone else. You stand in a mire of your own making.

Lessee...

KJVO...

Gehenna aint the lake of fire...

seven church ages...

Jesus doesn't reward according to works...

Who know how many more false doctrines you hold? Repent of them, THEN come back and criticize another. Till then, your credibility is ZERO.

 

[James_Newman]

One false doctrine I do not hold is the catholic doctrine of works salvation. As for Jesus rewarding according to works, of course I believe that.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

I'm certainly not going to apologize for believing the King James bible, but I can see how someone with your doctrinal bent might not like it.

 

[robycop3]

But ya don't wanna touch your other false doctrines, do ya? Ya don't touch the "church age" false doctrine. Ya still insist gehenna is not the LOF. As for believing the KJV, I believe it...but I do NOT believe it's the ONLY "official" English BV out there. That's a MAN-MADE LIE.

I explained who spread the church age garbage in the USA. it's another man-made lie, as any decent world history book can prove in about 3 ninutes. That false doctrine is ONENESS PENTECOSTAL garbage.

"Faith comes by hearing"...hearing WHAT? Hearing about JESUS, from the writings about Him He has chosen to be preserved as Scripture.
"...and hearing, by the word of God." Pretty self-explanatory.

"Not by works, lest any man should boast."

"Faith without works is dead."

I believe exactly as Scripture says...Believe that Jesus is alive, is Son of God and Himself God,is the ONLY savior from the penalty for your sins, is the ONLY ONE who can TRULY forgive them, and that YOU ARE SAVED if you believe thus. Your works should come naturally to you if you're saved and wanna serve Jesus.

Again...Long as you hold onto that boxcar fulla false doctrines, your credibility is ZERO.

 

[James_Newman]

I don't absolutely hold to a 'seven church ages' doctrine, I think it is interesting.

You plainly said that salvation was by faith and submission to Jesus. Paul said that we are saved by grace, not of works. How do you think that James' statement about faith without works reconciles your view with Paul's statement in Ephesians that we are saved by grace apart from works? How good do you reckon a man must be before he is worthy of God's grace?

2 Thessalonians 1:5
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

If this kingdom is God's eternal kingdom, then you must suffer and be accounted worthy of eternal life. As long as you hold on to your works for proof of your salvation, your assurance is ZERO, and I'd take that over credibility any day.

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

but not really, huh?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by James_Newman:

One false doctrine I do not hold is the catholic doctrine of works salvation. As for Jesus rewarding according to works, of course I believe that.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

I'm certainly not going to apologize for believing the King James bible, but I can see how someone with your doctrinal bent might not like it.

MAT 25:31-46 does not describe rewards. It describes eternal destiny, Heaven or Hell. The FINAL JUDGEMENT as does Rev 20.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: .......


Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary on MAT 25

MAT 25:32. And before him shall be gathered all nations--or, "all the nations." That this should be understood to mean the heathen nations, or all except believers in Christ, will seem amazing to any simple reader.

Yet this is the exposition of OLSHAUSEN, STIER, KEIL, ALFORD (though latterly with some diffidence), and of a number, though not all, of those who hold that Christ will come the second time before the millennium, and that the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air before His appearing.

Their chief argument is, the impossibility of any that ever knew the Lord Jesus wondering, at the Judgment Day, that they should be thought to have done--or left undone--anything "unto Christ." To that we shall advert when we come to it.

But here we may just say, that if this scene does not describe a personal, public, final judgment on men, according to the treatment they have given to Christ--and consequently men within the Christian pale--we shall have to consider again whether our Lord's teaching on the greatest themes of human interest does indeed possess that incomparable simplicity and transparency of meaning which, by universal consent, has been ascribed to it.

[ November 26, 2005, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: StraightAndNarrow ]

 

[MatthewHenry]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Those who take the mark of the beast, "will be tormented with burning sulfur." "Their torment rises for ever and ever" (Rev. 14:10-11).

The devil will be "thrown into the lake of burning sulfer where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (20:10). NIV

The KJV says it so much better, I think anyway...:

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:10-11 KJV)

WOW!

 

[James_Newman]

That is interesting that you bring that up.

Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Matthew 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

As far as I can see, all but the very elect will be deceived and will receive the mark. Those that do not receive the mark are going to reign with Christ for a thousand years. We see in Rev 14 what will happen to those that do take the mark. To say that Matthew 25 is a judgment of unbelievers for their conduct toward God's people during the tribulation would be a little absurd, no? A man might take the mark and worship the beast, but be told to enter into the kingdom because he gave one of the Lord's brethren a cup of water?

 

[robycop3]

James Newman:As far as I can see, all but the very elect will be deceived and will receive the mark. Those that do not receive the mark are going to reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Very good so far! That's what SCRIPTURE says.

We see in Rev 14 what will happen to those that do take the mark. To say that Matthew 25 is a judgment of unbelievers for their conduct toward God's people during the tribulation would be a little absurd, no?

Not really, because, again, that's what SCRIPTURE says. But that's typical behavior for those who've become victins of false doctrines...that they heed ONLY those parts of Scripture that agree with their man-made doctrines.


A man might take the mark and worship the beast, but be told to enter into the kingdom because he gave one of the Lord's brethren a cup of water?

if that's what God chose, YES. However, we read that He will send strong delusion upon the AC's followers so that they won't believe.

Sound harsh? Well, God has been warning the world through His word for over 1900 years now, so we clearly see what to watch out for, so that those who DO take his mark will be without excuse.

I believe the rapture will occur first, and some of those left will realize what's happened, and will believe in Christ & not take the mark. Some will be murdered for their refusal; others will starve.

But as for your question, it appears "love" will be but a four-letter word, and I doubt that any of the AC's homeboys will give anything but a bullet or the point of a bayonet to anyone not in "the elite". Jesus' examples are about Christians showing agape to their fellow man, while sinners do the opposite.

MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH...........

Have you realized that gehenna & the LOF are one & the same? If so, you're making headway in ridding yourself of your false doctrines.

As for the "Church Age" garbage...I suggest you read its history to see where it came from. Key words: darby, branham, oneness pentecostal. Here's some quick and brief history of things occurring during the "Philadelphia Age", generally reckoned to be from C. 1750-C.1906-1914:
Wars & insurrections:
American Revoluiton
Napoleonic Wars
Mexican Revolution
War of 1812
Crimean War
Mexican War
French Revolution
American Civil War
Boer War
Boxer Rebellion
Franco-Prussian War
French & Indian War

On the religious front:
Mormons founded
Millerites founded
Seventh Day Adventists founded
Oneness Pentecostals founded
Jehovah Witnesses founded
Christian Science founded
Darbyism founded
L. Ron Hubbard born, 1911
Wm. Branham born, 1909
Azuza Street "revival", 1906
Several "swamis", "avatars", "yogis", and other reps of offshoots of Hinduism traipsed about the USA, 1890s-1900s

This is off the top of my head. I'm sure I've missed a few wars and cults, but you should get the message that the "church Age " thingie is a crock. I didn't even mention all the corruption rampant at all levels of govt. worldwide from the 1870s through the 1910s. The "Philadelphia Age" times were most likely the MOST CORRUPT and the most RIGHTEOUSNESS-POOR era in the world's history after Noah.

 

[James_Newman]

Sometimes I wonder if you are reading what I type. And you're really hung up on this church age thing. Why don't you make a list of why the LOF has to be gehenna so I can address each of your arguments in order, again, instead of watching you hack to pieces your straw man?

You still haven't explained why the judgment in Matthew 25 is not at the Lord's second coming.
Matthew 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
When is the Son of man coming?

 

[robycop3]

No need to make a list...JESUS calls the fire of gehenna eternal.

Mark 9:43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell(gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

We know the LOF is eternal.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now, there are either TWO places of eternal punishment or gehenna & the LOF are one & the same. I believe they're one & the same. Why would God have TWO places of eternal punishment? Isn't He powerful enough to make one place to hold all?

 

[James_Newman]

Mark 9:43 says never quenched, not eternal. We have already discussed the definitions of quench and unquenchable. You yourself said that hades would not be quenched either, but would be cast into the lake of fire. This is not an argument for your case.

Rev 20 says lake of fire, not gehenna. You do this everytime one or the other is spoken of. When the bible says lake of fire, you say gehenna. When your bible says gehenna, you say lake of fire. You have been well conditioned, but you haven't given a reason other than unquenchable which is no reason at all.

Now what about the timing in Matthew 25:31? Do you just assume it is talking about the great white throne because it says eternal fire? Or do you have a good reason to disregard the timeframe that is given, which is 'when the Son of man comes'?

 

[prophecynut]

On Mt. 9:43 the NIV has: "go into hell, where the fire never goes out." If the fire is never distinguished, it has to continue to burn forever so it will not go out. Easy to understand that the fire must burn eternally for it never to go out.

The timing of Mt 25:31 is the Second Coming and judgment of those who survived the Tribulation, the living goats who are cursed will be cast into the lake of fire a thousand years before the wicked dead join them after judgement at the Great White throne.

This same eternal fire is also the final destination "for the devil and his angels (41). Rev. 20:10 states this will happen at the end of the Millennium.

At the Second Coming the devil will be locked up for a thousand years in the Abyss, then released for a short time to deceive the nation at the end of it and cast into the eternal fire.

Hades is reserved only for the souls of the wicked dead until judged at the great white throne, never the devil and his angels.

 

[James_Newman]

I realize that when we hear the words 'never quenched' we have this idea of a fire that burns on and on forever. But we have a precedent in the old testament that we must take into account.

Jeremiah 17:27
27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

According to Matthew Henry, this prophecy was fulfilled by the Chaldeans in Jer 52:13. Is this fire burning still? Or does unquenchable fire merely mean that it will continue to burn until it has fulfilled the appointed time and purpose with no way of stopping it? Whether or not the fire 'goes out' is not even in question, if the fire is transferred into the lake of fire, it will continue to burn.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha currently suffering in the lake of fire?

As for the goats, I don't know if these could be 'wicked survivors' of the tribulation or not. I tend to think not, as in Rev 19 we see the following:
Revelation 19:20-21
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I don't think there will be any survivors.

 

[robycop3]

There's still no reason given why gehenna & the lof are not one and the same.

The populations of Sodom & Gomorrah are in hades.

A fire set by God on earth will go out when its purpose is accomplished, as you said, I.E. the fire in Jerusalem, & the burning bush seen by Moses, but the purpose of the LOF is perpetual, so it always will burn. and hades will burn long as it exists.

We know hades isn't gehenna nor tartarus; that leaves only the LOF unless ya believe gehenna is a separate place of punishment.