Is there Salvation outside of Christ?

Excellent points, but I would say that Because Christ is to have pre-eminence over all things, that even such salvation (which is deliverance timely) is most certainly not apart from Christ.

Who has blessed the non-swimmer with the presence of a swimmer?

The hunter with the technology of a gun?

He is the author AND finisher of our faith.

Bro. Dallas

Originally posted by Frogman:
Dear Brother John,
I do have the book. Thanks for recommending it.

I am convinced that there was an elect people among that tribe of people who knew and believed the truth and possessed the hope long before the missionary arrived on the feild.

If you will read my post, I don't think I stated the entire tribe of people were eternally saved because of this story.

What was it you said the usefulness of this story and other 'mythological' stories are for these heathen peoples?

What is it the scripture says? Does God not have people out of every tongue and tribe and nation? If so, how did he get a people out of every tongue, tribe and nation prior to TBN and the missionary Baptists and likeminded beleivers? Was he powerless to redeem HIS People prior to a worldwide mission evangelistic television series?

Bro. Dallas

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Bro. Dallas,

Obviously God is not powerless to redeem His people. That's a given.

The passages you are referring to about every tongue and tribe and nation are in Revelation.

Re 5:9--"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

Re 14:6--"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people."

This is a future condition, not a present condition. God has not elected to save people by any other means than the Gospel. The Bible is most explicit on that. Romans 10:13-15 says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

So as the Gospel is gotten out before the 2nd Coming of Christ and then in the tribulation period, yes, people will be saved out of every tribe and nation.

We differ in our understanding of things brother.

God is dwelling in eternity, his omnipresence means he is dwelling in all tenses of time. He alone.

Why did you leave out Romans 10:16 & 17?

Could it be you do not want to speak on the 'word' of God as it is expressed to be the exclamation of God (rhema) and thereby show that Romans 10:13-15 is not speaking of mine and your speech?

How is it that something that is so diluted and often even adulterated by depraved man is thought to wash the sinner clean?

Another Topic just came to my mind.

Bro. Dallas

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
..........One might conclude "such a pagan does not exist" but if it IS "theoretically possible", then such a pagan MAY someday exist.

My contention is that this is error. There is NO SALVATION outside of Christ.

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What I got out of my quote from Packer was not only that such a pagan does not exist but according to Scripture it is NOT theoretically possible.
Actually he is agreeing with you.

Karen

Originally posted by Helen:
God knows the hearts of people, Marcia. He knows who has trusted Him for salvation by way of whatever truth they knew/know. It is not intellectual knowledge which saves; it is faith in God, because of His incredible grace.

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I totally agree with your statement, Helen, but that is not the issue. I am quite aware it is not intellectual knowledge that saves; you don't have to tell me that.

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
Inclusivists like C.S. Lewis would answer the OP question with NO.

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Yes, but what they would mean by that is that someone can be saved by Christ without knowing about Christ.

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
God knows the hearts of people, Marcia. He knows who has trusted Him for salvation by way of whatever truth they knew/know. It is not intellectual knowledge which saves; it is faith in God, because of His incredible grace.

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I totally agree with your statement, Helen, but that is not the issue. I am quite aware it is not intellectual knowledge that saves; you don't have to tell me that. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I don't agree with the part where you say, "By way of whaterver truth they knew/know" if it means being saved without knowing the gospel of Christ.

Was Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Noah, David,...all saved outside of Christ?

NO. Neither is anyone else of whom are not of this flock that He must bring with Him also.

Simple when you are blessed to be able to see it and to think that all these are made accepted in Christ Jesus, and are made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Even as we are wondering all that we wonder, He is operating according to the counsel of His will to call forth those who are His.

Bro. Dallas

As I posted earlier, since the incarnation of Christ, it is clearly taught that the gospel of Jesus Christ saves and that alone. Abraham, Noah, Lot, etc. could not believe in the incarnated Christ because he had not incarnated. Some say they believed in the promise of the Messiah.

Let's stick to the present -- are you saying that a person can be saved now by believing in a supreme being and not knowing Christ?

Christ said nothing about 'knowing' Him except in connection that He knows His sheep and they hear His voice and they follow Him.

He said nothing about His sheep hearing the voice of another in order to follow Him.

He said He knows His sheep and they know Him.

He knows and they know. All we are commanded to do is to declare the completed work of Christ (Col. 1:13-20).

Either Christ died for all sins of all who the Father gave Him or He did not, it is that simple.

If He did, then this includes the sin of unbelief, if He did not, then their is a condition of belief placed upon the redeemed.

Otherwise, you and I cannot look into the heart of anyone and determine the truthfulness of their 'belief' unto righteousness prior to their confession upon their lips; (Romans 10:10).

Paul says Abraham received Isaac from the grave in a like figure (Heb. 11:17; Gen. 22:8 cf. Heb. 1:3)

who has provided himself?
who has by himself purged us of our sins?

You ask me to stick to the present, is God no longer dwelling in eternity?

As you know, He is. Therefore, He is omnipresent, He is the beginning and the end. That includes the present.

Where is it clearly taught that the gospel of Jesus Christ saves unto the uttermost and that alone? Where is it clearly taught that the gospel of Jesus Christ saves for eternity?

Where is such a transitional period that many speak of but cannot show?


Bro. Dallas

Frogman, your post is too convoluted for me.

Are you saying that salvation can come now without hearing the gospel and believing in Jesus Christ?

You mention the sin of unbelief and that Jesus died for this. Does this mean unbelievers are saved? I'm somewhat confused by your post.

Originally posted by Frogman:
We differ in our understanding of things brother.

God is dwelling in eternity, his omnipresence means he is dwelling in all tenses of time. He alone.

Why did you leave out Romans 10:16 & 17?

Could it be you do not want to speak on the 'word' of God as it is expressed to be the exclamation of God (rhema) and thereby show that Romans 10:13-15 is not speaking of mine and your speech?

How is it that something that is so diluted and often even adulterated by depraved man is thought to wash the sinner clean?

Another Topic just came to my mind.

Bro. Dallas

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Bro. Dallas, I'm still trying to figure where you are coming from. Are you approaching this from a predestination standpoint? If so, do you believe that God will (not can, we know He can do anything) elect and save someone who never hears the Gospel? Are you eliminating the human element in the salvation of a soul?

You ask why I left out Rom. 10:16-17. I didn't leave the verses out, I just didn't think they were relevant to my post so I didn't include them. How are they relevant to what you are trying to say?

Those verses are: "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

If anything, these verses strengthen my position. Since faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, it stands to reason that there MUST be a human proclaimer of the Gospel or the lost person cannot be saved.

Originally posted by Marcia:
Frogman, your post is too convoluted for me.

Are you saying that salvation can come now without hearing the gospel and believing in Jesus Christ?

You mention the sin of unbelief and that Jesus died for this. Does this mean unbelievers are saved? I'm somewhat confused by your post.

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Same here, Marcia. I can't follow it. I hope he answers your plain and simple questions.

Originally posted by Marcia:
As I posted earlier, since the incarnation of Christ, it is clearly taught that the gospel of Jesus Christ saves and that alone. Abraham, Noah, Lot, etc. could not believe in the incarnated Christ because he had not incarnated. Some say they believed in the promise of the Messiah.

Let's stick to the present -- are you saying that a person can be saved now by believing in a supreme being and not knowing Christ?

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In Romans 4, when illustrating justification through faith, Paul gave two examples of what he meant. Both of those examples were people who "could not believe in the incarnated Christ because he had not incarnated", and yet both are held up as clear examples of New Testament salvation. Are you saying that a person cannot be saved now in the same way that Abraham and David were? That's not what the Bible says.

Whatever, the usual orthodox, conservative theology on this is that Abraham (and all the other OT saints) believed by faith in the coming Christ, prophesied all the way from Adam, and were saved. We saints of the NT age are saved by faith in the Christ Who came and died on the cross for us.

There is no Christ the Savior in Buddhism, Shinto, Hinduism, Islam (the Koran mentions Christ but not as a Savior), animism or any other idolatrous religion. Judaism has a coming Christ, but not none Who came.

So, what in the world is a person supposed to believe in for salvation if he is a Buddhist, for example? There is nothing in his religion except works salvation. Buddhism certainly doesn't teach that Buddha is a savior--he's just an example of how to become a god (and a lousy example, at that, since he left his wife and kids to search for "enlightenment"). So, whatever, what is the Buddhist supposed to believe in for salvation? Both the OT and NT saints have a Savior. Buddhism does not.

Their is only one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus.

Any other 'human' means is of the flesh.

The gospel has never been of use in the regeneration of the elect. The redeemed, of whom God the Father gave to God the Son that He and He alone would redeem.

If Christ died for all sin, He must have died for the sin of unbelief, or else it is not a sin, or else Christ did not die for all sin.

He did not die for all men. If He did, then His Work being perfect and having purged us from our sins, there would be none to stand condemned.

He did not die for all men. If He did, then His work being perfect and being presented to God through the Eternal Spirit, certainly would be so much more than only sufficient for all men, but also efficient for all men.

As far as Romans 10:17, the Bible says the 'word' of God, that is 'faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God'

The word of God not of man.

The 'rhema' of God, not the 'rhema' of man.

The 'exclamation of God, not the exclamation of man.

There is no room for sinful man in the perfect completed work of the Son of God who was promised to the fathers in the prophets, Romans 1; made in the seed of David, declared to be the Son of God by the Spirit of Holiness in being raised from the Grave.

Where, why, and how do you see man in this equation? Except for the man, Christ Jesus.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

Originally posted by Frogman:
Their is only one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus.

Any other 'human' means is of the flesh.

The gospel has never been of use in the regeneration of the elect. The redeemed, of whom God the Father gave to God the Son that He and He alone would redeem.

If Christ died for all sin, He must have died for the sin of unbelief, or else it is not a sin, or else Christ did not die for all sin.

He did not die for all men. If He did, then His Work being perfect and having purged us from our sins, there would be none to stand condemned.

He did not die for all men. If He did, then His work being perfect and being presented to God through the Eternal Spirit, certainly would be so much more than only sufficient for all men, but also efficient for all men.

As far as Romans 10:17, the Bible says the 'word' of God, that is 'faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God'

The word of God not of man.

The 'rhema' of God, not the 'rhema' of man.

The 'exclamation of God, not the exclamation of man.

There is no room for sinful man in the perfect completed work of the Son of God who was promised to the fathers in the prophets, Romans 1; made in the seed of David, declared to be the Son of God by the Spirit of Holiness in being raised from the Grave.

Where, why, and how do you see man in this equation? Except for the man, Christ Jesus.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

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Huh? So then you are saying that there is no need for people to take the message of salvation? God saves people without them ever hearing the Gospel, and my work as a missionary is unneeded. Right?

Dear Brother John,
Your work and efforts as a missionary are unneeded only if you depend upon the message of a man to eternally save your hearers.

your work as a missionary is needed if you realize your task is not to remove the power and authority of God being set in Christ and simply proclaim to your hearers the truth of the reconcilitation that is in the body of His flesh.

Thereby does the preaching of the cross 'save' them 'that' beleive.

You are not calling dead men to Christ by the words of your message and the Spirit is not using the words of your message.

He alone calls the dead to live; that life and immortality is brought to light (to the knowledge of your hearers) through the gospel.

That is Biblical Truth.

Therefore, your efforts are not unfruitful, but it is not because of your obedience in engaging in those efforts.

When you point someone to Christ they either see a yoke that is burdensome and heavy laden, a work they cannot live up to; or they see a completed work of righteousness revealed to themselves through the operation of God's word living in them.

If you point them to a building that is not there they cannot go into it for shelter; if you point them to a building that is there, they can easily go in and find refuge from the storms of this world.

The truth is the truth because it is and not because someone believed your message and thereby validated it as truth.

It is that simple.

Bro. Dallas

Okay, Bro. Dallas.

All that is fine and I'm not saying I disagree. But the OP is, "Is there salvation outside of Christ?" I have felt that you have been arguing that yes, there is salvation outside of Christ, that people can be saved without the Gospel.

What are you saying in reference to the OP? Is there salvation outside of Christ? Can people be saved without the Gospel? (Yes, of course, as the Holy Spirit convicts, I can't save anyone myself, etc.--but these issues are not the OP.)

Please give me some plain replies. Take a stand here, Bro. Dallas, on one side of the OP or the other.

Dear Brother John,
I have been taking a stand throughout this entire thread.

The gospel has no power toward regeneration.

The gospel as you and I preach and teach it only brings to light and already existing life and immortality.

You see, the op is a feigned question that makes the Biblical truth that God immediately regenerates the elect according to the counsel of His will to sound as if I believe there is no salvation outside of Christ.

You and the op are not asking me if there is salvation outside of Christ, you are asking me if there is eternal life outside of the gospel message.

I believe there is. You want to know whether I beleive this means that those who are regenerated apart from the gospel message is outside of Christ?

NO they are not outside of Christ, but are blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ before the foundation of the world.

There is no hope of eternal life outside of Christ.

There is no Biblical evidence that this hope is imparted through the preaching of the gospel message, therefore there is hope of eternal life outside of the gospel message being heard.

Bro. Dallas Eaton