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Number of people in Heaven?
- Thread starter AF Guy N Paradise
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Helen
Every person has a human-will. We make choices, we make decisions based on our own desires. But, the choices and the decisions we make are influenced by a multitude of forces that are beyond our control.
These include the sin in our lives, Satan and his demons, the sin in other peoples lives, and most importantly, they are influenced by the work of the Holy Spirit of God in drawing us to the Father, and bringing us under conviction of sin and to repentence and faith.
That is why the choices are not "free". They are real choices, and we are reponsible for these choices, but they are influenced by inside and outside forces that are alien to the original human-will.
The term "free-will" is a very specific term, 1st introduced by Plato (if I remember my history right) and later picked up by Palegius in his debates with Augustine.
Palegius maintained (if I remember my history right) that since God holds us responsible for our actions, our wills must be totally free to choose right or wrong. The argument had to do with original sin and our degraved nature.
Although he was condemned, the idea of "free-will" has continued within the church, mostly, I think, because people don't understand the issues involved.
It is not about being a puppet or a robot. It is about whether the decisions we are making are free from some other influence. Scripture is clear, in many places, that sin has control over those without Christ. So much control, in fact, that both Christ and Paul will compare sin to a slave master, controlling the actions of a slave.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain what I mean.
peace to you
Every person has a human-will. We make choices, we make decisions based on our own desires. But, the choices and the decisions we make are influenced by a multitude of forces that are beyond our control.
These include the sin in our lives, Satan and his demons, the sin in other peoples lives, and most importantly, they are influenced by the work of the Holy Spirit of God in drawing us to the Father, and bringing us under conviction of sin and to repentence and faith.
That is why the choices are not "free". They are real choices, and we are reponsible for these choices, but they are influenced by inside and outside forces that are alien to the original human-will.
The term "free-will" is a very specific term, 1st introduced by Plato (if I remember my history right) and later picked up by Palegius in his debates with Augustine.
Palegius maintained (if I remember my history right) that since God holds us responsible for our actions, our wills must be totally free to choose right or wrong. The argument had to do with original sin and our degraved nature.
Although he was condemned, the idea of "free-will" has continued within the church, mostly, I think, because people don't understand the issues involved.
It is not about being a puppet or a robot. It is about whether the decisions we are making are free from some other influence. Scripture is clear, in many places, that sin has control over those without Christ. So much control, in fact, that both Christ and Paul will compare sin to a slave master, controlling the actions of a slave.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain what I mean.
peace to you
standingfirminChrist
New Member
So, we are puppets.. not just in God's hands, but also satans?
I don't think so!
I don't think so!
There is not a decision on this earth that is free of influences! However that does not make the choices less free.
Although I appreciate your referencing to Greek and other philosophers, they are not the definers of words as we use them today.
Here is what I refer to when I think of free will -- I think of the ability to make an honest and real choice between two or more AVAILABLE AND POSSIBLE alternatives. Salvation is available and possible to every member of the human race and there is a real choice to be made by each person. Being a slave to sin is a condition but not one which governs a person's desires. The tendency may be toward evil, but we were created to love, and that desire overrides all other things. The fact that there is attempted fulfillment in so many false avenues does not negate that one overwhelming desire to love and be loved. And I am personally convinced that that God-given desire and purpose in each life makes it possible for a man to actually choose God rather than simply be chosen by God in some irresistible manner in which he has no say or choice.
All men have a sense of the fact that there exists a 'right' and a 'wrong'. They may disagree as to what right and wrong ARE, but the fact of their existence is never really questioned. And all people feel the struggle between the two sides within them.
And each person is given the right and the responsibility by God to choose to whom he will be a slave: sin or righteousness.
That is what free will means. There is no such thing as being free from outside influences, so we have to talk about the real world.
Although I appreciate your referencing to Greek and other philosophers, they are not the definers of words as we use them today.
Here is what I refer to when I think of free will -- I think of the ability to make an honest and real choice between two or more AVAILABLE AND POSSIBLE alternatives. Salvation is available and possible to every member of the human race and there is a real choice to be made by each person. Being a slave to sin is a condition but not one which governs a person's desires. The tendency may be toward evil, but we were created to love, and that desire overrides all other things. The fact that there is attempted fulfillment in so many false avenues does not negate that one overwhelming desire to love and be loved. And I am personally convinced that that God-given desire and purpose in each life makes it possible for a man to actually choose God rather than simply be chosen by God in some irresistible manner in which he has no say or choice.
All men have a sense of the fact that there exists a 'right' and a 'wrong'. They may disagree as to what right and wrong ARE, but the fact of their existence is never really questioned. And all people feel the struggle between the two sides within them.
And each person is given the right and the responsibility by God to choose to whom he will be a slave: sin or righteousness.
That is what free will means. There is no such thing as being free from outside influences, so we have to talk about the real world.
Wow, this topic or question of mine started out real slow with only 2 responses. Then I asked about free will and it has jumped to over 40 responses. Now, we are way off topic here... Thanks anyway, it is interesting.
God Bless.
God Bless.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Helen
I appreciate your passion for this issue. However, I believe you are letting emotions get in the way of what God has taught us in His Word.
Personally, I want to base everything that I believe about myself, God, salvation etc, on what God has revealed to us in His Word. You said several things that are simply not supported by scripture.
The danger of your position, as I see it, is that it gives unbelievers the idea that they can choose at any time to accept God on their own terms. No conviction of the Holy Spirit, no being drawn by the Spirit, no sense of repentance. No sense of the expectation of a life living for the cause of Christ. Why not wait, as one man told me, until he "had his fun"?
As far as having the ability to choose sin or righteousness, Martin Luther said it best. A human being is a gnat sitting on the north side of a south bound elephant. To the extent that the gnat controls where the elephant goes, that is how much control a human being has over the sin in his life.
That said, I am certain we will never come to an agreement here, so...
peace to you
I appreciate your passion for this issue. However, I believe you are letting emotions get in the way of what God has taught us in His Word.
Personally, I want to base everything that I believe about myself, God, salvation etc, on what God has revealed to us in His Word. You said several things that are simply not supported by scripture.
The danger of your position, as I see it, is that it gives unbelievers the idea that they can choose at any time to accept God on their own terms. No conviction of the Holy Spirit, no being drawn by the Spirit, no sense of repentance. No sense of the expectation of a life living for the cause of Christ. Why not wait, as one man told me, until he "had his fun"?
As far as having the ability to choose sin or righteousness, Martin Luther said it best. A human being is a gnat sitting on the north side of a south bound elephant. To the extent that the gnat controls where the elephant goes, that is how much control a human being has over the sin in his life.
That said, I am certain we will never come to an agreement here, so...
peace to you
canadyjd,
Well, I certainly disagree with Martin Luther. But mostly I would like to respond to what you said here:
The danger of your position, as I see it, is that it gives unbelievers the idea that they can choose at any time to accept God on their own terms. No conviction of the Holy Spirit, no being drawn by the Spirit, no sense of repentance. No sense of the expectation of a life living for the cause of Christ. Why not wait, as one man told me, until he "had his fun"?
I think you are making an unwarranted leap here. No, it is not 'on their own terms.' Romans 1 tells us that enough truth is revealed to every man to know something about the character of God, which also then implies the reality of His existence. From what I can see in Romans 1 as well, is that it is what a man does about that truth which is the determining factor in his future.
Thus, when Jesus said "Seek and ye shall find", we have what amounts to a two-edged sword. If you are seeking to suppress the truth, then you will be given the lie, for that is all there is left. But if you are responding to the truth with a desire for more, and you are seeking it, then the Father will lead you to the Son.
So, from what I see in the Bible, it has nothing to do with anyone's 'own terms', but with what they choose to do with the truth they are shown. It is because of this that it is impossible for someone to consciously wait until they have 'had their fun' to 'get on God's side' (which is how they seem to see it). God is not mocked. The choices a person makes early on lead him further and further down the road those choices started him or her on.
My mother, for instance, was deeply into psychics, reincarnation, the Unity School of Christianity, etc. etc. She was an incredible gossip and during the last few years of her life managed to say things to me each time I visited that left me in tears. She was exquisitely cruel and she didn't even know it! She had gone that far down that road. My children asked me, a number of years ago before she died why she was like that. All I could tell them was that the choices a person made early in life led on and on and on down one road or another until they ended up either really Christ-like or....not. I mentioned to them that they would rarely see an older person who was not really, really nice or really, really awful.
It depends on what you do with the truth.
Let give my Dad as a separate example. He grew up in a home where they 'owned' the front pew in a high Episcoplian church. So what he heard in church and experienced there had nothing to do with the truth of Christ, really. It was politics and social and business connections there. But through the years he dug for truth. He responded to it. His commitment to my mother even when she was unfaithful was absolute, because his word was good. A few months before he died, he asked me why I believed what I did, and I told him. He patted my knee and told me "You're one kid I won't have to worry about." But although, because of various other experiences he had not, up to that point, associated the Christian religion with the truth, because he WANTED the truth, God was faithful to lead him to Christ, and before my father died he was joyfully and completely a believer.
But you see, he had wanted the truth all his life. My mother had suppressed it all her life. It was my mother who demanded her own terms. My father only wanted truth and so, on God's terms, he found it. My father's choices led him to deep repentance and apologies to my mother and to us children that I, personally, thought were things he didn't need to apologize for at all! But God knew his heart and he felt the conviction of needing to apologize.
My mother made excuses for much that she said and did, but I do not remember any repentance from her at all. I would hear "I'm sorry you were hurt..." but that was being sorry about something about me, not about anything she had done. It was my fault that her remarks caused me pain, you see....
My parents both had the freedom to choose what they were going to do with the truth that they did become aware of in their lives. They responded, freely, two different ways.
We each have that option.
That is what the Bible tells us -- choose THIS DAY. Not tomorrow. Not when you have 'had your fun'. Today. While it is still called today. God answered my father's heart's desire. He also answered my mother's desire. One got the truth, and that is Jesus. The other got the lie.
If a person wants things on his own terms, that path will never lead to Christ. But Martin Luther could not have been more wrong about the elephant picture. We may not have control over our sin NATURES before being born again, but we most certainly have control over how those natures are expressed. If we didn't, all the legal systems in the world would be utterly worthless.
Well, I certainly disagree with Martin Luther. But mostly I would like to respond to what you said here:
The danger of your position, as I see it, is that it gives unbelievers the idea that they can choose at any time to accept God on their own terms. No conviction of the Holy Spirit, no being drawn by the Spirit, no sense of repentance. No sense of the expectation of a life living for the cause of Christ. Why not wait, as one man told me, until he "had his fun"?
I think you are making an unwarranted leap here. No, it is not 'on their own terms.' Romans 1 tells us that enough truth is revealed to every man to know something about the character of God, which also then implies the reality of His existence. From what I can see in Romans 1 as well, is that it is what a man does about that truth which is the determining factor in his future.
Thus, when Jesus said "Seek and ye shall find", we have what amounts to a two-edged sword. If you are seeking to suppress the truth, then you will be given the lie, for that is all there is left. But if you are responding to the truth with a desire for more, and you are seeking it, then the Father will lead you to the Son.
So, from what I see in the Bible, it has nothing to do with anyone's 'own terms', but with what they choose to do with the truth they are shown. It is because of this that it is impossible for someone to consciously wait until they have 'had their fun' to 'get on God's side' (which is how they seem to see it). God is not mocked. The choices a person makes early on lead him further and further down the road those choices started him or her on.
My mother, for instance, was deeply into psychics, reincarnation, the Unity School of Christianity, etc. etc. She was an incredible gossip and during the last few years of her life managed to say things to me each time I visited that left me in tears. She was exquisitely cruel and she didn't even know it! She had gone that far down that road. My children asked me, a number of years ago before she died why she was like that. All I could tell them was that the choices a person made early in life led on and on and on down one road or another until they ended up either really Christ-like or....not. I mentioned to them that they would rarely see an older person who was not really, really nice or really, really awful.
It depends on what you do with the truth.
Let give my Dad as a separate example. He grew up in a home where they 'owned' the front pew in a high Episcoplian church. So what he heard in church and experienced there had nothing to do with the truth of Christ, really. It was politics and social and business connections there. But through the years he dug for truth. He responded to it. His commitment to my mother even when she was unfaithful was absolute, because his word was good. A few months before he died, he asked me why I believed what I did, and I told him. He patted my knee and told me "You're one kid I won't have to worry about." But although, because of various other experiences he had not, up to that point, associated the Christian religion with the truth, because he WANTED the truth, God was faithful to lead him to Christ, and before my father died he was joyfully and completely a believer.
But you see, he had wanted the truth all his life. My mother had suppressed it all her life. It was my mother who demanded her own terms. My father only wanted truth and so, on God's terms, he found it. My father's choices led him to deep repentance and apologies to my mother and to us children that I, personally, thought were things he didn't need to apologize for at all! But God knew his heart and he felt the conviction of needing to apologize.
My mother made excuses for much that she said and did, but I do not remember any repentance from her at all. I would hear "I'm sorry you were hurt..." but that was being sorry about something about me, not about anything she had done. It was my fault that her remarks caused me pain, you see....
My parents both had the freedom to choose what they were going to do with the truth that they did become aware of in their lives. They responded, freely, two different ways.
We each have that option.
That is what the Bible tells us -- choose THIS DAY. Not tomorrow. Not when you have 'had your fun'. Today. While it is still called today. God answered my father's heart's desire. He also answered my mother's desire. One got the truth, and that is Jesus. The other got the lie.
If a person wants things on his own terms, that path will never lead to Christ. But Martin Luther could not have been more wrong about the elephant picture. We may not have control over our sin NATURES before being born again, but we most certainly have control over how those natures are expressed. If we didn't, all the legal systems in the world would be utterly worthless.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Helen
I appreciate you sharing your personal experiences with your parents. It must have been difficult to live with your mother's abuse all those years. I am sorry you and your children went through that.
Let me point out one thing you said and show you where we are going to disagree.
You said, "Romans 1 tells us that enough truth is revealed to every man to know something about the character of God, which also then implies the reality of His existence. From what I can see in Romans 1 as well, is that it is what a man does about that truth which is the determining factor in his future."
...............End Quote.........................
It is true that God has revealed Himself in creation, and because of that, everyone is without excuse. But, it is not what a man does that determines his future. It is what God does.
Why? Because every man on the planet has rejected God according to Romans 3:9-12:
(v.9)"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,
'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one;'
Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find" but Paul tells us that none are seeking for God. How can we solve this apparent contradiction? Because we will seek if God intervenes.
Jesus said in Matt. 11:27: "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
To anyone the Son "wills" to reveal Him. Not man's will, but God's will.
and John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
None can come to Christ without the intervention of God. The Father draws, and there is a 100% success rate with the "drawing" because Jesus says of those drawn by the Father, "I will raise him up on the last day." Nothing about man's will. God the Father draws, we respond, and Christ raises us up.
So then everyone must be given that chance to respond, right? No they are not.
John 8:43-44 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father."
Jesus doesn't say they will not hear, He says they "cannot" hear. Why? Because they are of the devil. Notice they do not act according to their own wills, but they act on the desires of Satan, their father.
and John 10:26-27, "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Again, Jesus makes a distinction. These men did not believe because they weren't Jesus's sheep. If they were, they would have heard His voice and responded by following Him. So you must be one of His sheep before you hear His voice. If they are one of His sheep, they will believe...100% of the time. Why? "My sheep hear My voice...and they follow Me;"
You see, it does not depend on what man does. God draws, reveals, calls, convicts...etc. Man responds in repentance and faith.
Therefore, there is no "free-will" but human-will; enslaved to sin unless it is freed by Christ.
There are many more passages.
peace to you
I appreciate you sharing your personal experiences with your parents. It must have been difficult to live with your mother's abuse all those years. I am sorry you and your children went through that.
Let me point out one thing you said and show you where we are going to disagree.
You said, "Romans 1 tells us that enough truth is revealed to every man to know something about the character of God, which also then implies the reality of His existence. From what I can see in Romans 1 as well, is that it is what a man does about that truth which is the determining factor in his future."
...............End Quote.........................
It is true that God has revealed Himself in creation, and because of that, everyone is without excuse. But, it is not what a man does that determines his future. It is what God does.
Why? Because every man on the planet has rejected God according to Romans 3:9-12:
(v.9)"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,
'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one;'
Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find" but Paul tells us that none are seeking for God. How can we solve this apparent contradiction? Because we will seek if God intervenes.
Jesus said in Matt. 11:27: "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
To anyone the Son "wills" to reveal Him. Not man's will, but God's will.
and John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
None can come to Christ without the intervention of God. The Father draws, and there is a 100% success rate with the "drawing" because Jesus says of those drawn by the Father, "I will raise him up on the last day." Nothing about man's will. God the Father draws, we respond, and Christ raises us up.
So then everyone must be given that chance to respond, right? No they are not.
John 8:43-44 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father."
Jesus doesn't say they will not hear, He says they "cannot" hear. Why? Because they are of the devil. Notice they do not act according to their own wills, but they act on the desires of Satan, their father.
and John 10:26-27, "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Again, Jesus makes a distinction. These men did not believe because they weren't Jesus's sheep. If they were, they would have heard His voice and responded by following Him. So you must be one of His sheep before you hear His voice. If they are one of His sheep, they will believe...100% of the time. Why? "My sheep hear My voice...and they follow Me;"
You see, it does not depend on what man does. God draws, reveals, calls, convicts...etc. Man responds in repentance and faith.
Therefore, there is no "free-will" but human-will; enslaved to sin unless it is freed by Christ.
There are many more passages.
peace to you
Rejecting God is not the same as rejecting truth. That is why each man has a choice. That is why the Bible says, a number of times "Seek God." Following the truth inevitably leads to Christ. What a man does with the truth he is presented is exactly what determines his eternal destiny. If not, the entire Bible is a waste of time, for it does not matter what a man knows or what he does.
But the Bible indicates that it is quite important regarding what a man knows and does, and the choices he makes. This also makes the Bible extremely important, that a man should know it.
The reason some CANNOT hear is because they have hardened their own hearts (Eph. 4:18-19) by suppressing the truth that they have seen and know to be true. This is why the writer to the Hebrews BEGS them not to harden their hearts!
But the Bible indicates that it is quite important regarding what a man knows and does, and the choices he makes. This also makes the Bible extremely important, that a man should know it.
The reason some CANNOT hear is because they have hardened their own hearts (Eph. 4:18-19) by suppressing the truth that they have seen and know to be true. This is why the writer to the Hebrews BEGS them not to harden their hearts!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Helen
Rejecting God is the same as rejecting truth. Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". (John 14:1+) Jesus is "the Truth".
Again, you focus on what man does. The bible focuses on what God does.
Jesus gave the reason that they "cannot" hear in John 8:43-44. It was because they are of the devil and do the desires of the devil. Why are you ignoring what is said in context, and bringing in another passage of scripture out of context?
I am happy to discuss whatever verses of scripture you want to discuss. If you think Eph. 4:18-19 explains John 8:43-44, the burden is on you to show how. You can't just ignore what Jesus said, however.
If you want to take a single verse of scripture and discuss it, I am more than willing to do my best (with you) to figure out what it says in context.
By the way, I want to be clear that we do make a "choice" for Christ. We repent and believe. We seek Him. The point of the scripture that I quoted is that this "choice" is a direct result of God intervening in a person's life through the Holy Spirit. We respond to what God has done for us.
peace to you
Rejecting God is the same as rejecting truth. Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". (John 14:1+) Jesus is "the Truth".
Again, you focus on what man does. The bible focuses on what God does.
Jesus gave the reason that they "cannot" hear in John 8:43-44. It was because they are of the devil and do the desires of the devil. Why are you ignoring what is said in context, and bringing in another passage of scripture out of context?
I am happy to discuss whatever verses of scripture you want to discuss. If you think Eph. 4:18-19 explains John 8:43-44, the burden is on you to show how. You can't just ignore what Jesus said, however.
If you want to take a single verse of scripture and discuss it, I am more than willing to do my best (with you) to figure out what it says in context.
By the way, I want to be clear that we do make a "choice" for Christ. We repent and believe. We seek Him. The point of the scripture that I quoted is that this "choice" is a direct result of God intervening in a person's life through the Holy Spirit. We respond to what God has done for us.
peace to you