Number of people in Heaven?

And for that reason, I prefer to refer to it as a state of accountability, rather than an age of accountability. That would also apply to persons who are infirmed, retarded, mentally incapacitated, or prevented from comprehending the gospel for any similar exraneous reason.

 

That makes sense, John. However, since the brain itself is not finished developing (and, in fact, goes through radical physiological changes during the teens) until about 18-20 years old, it makes sense that the indication from God with the Israelites in the wilderness of 20 years old may be an indication of the average, not counting the mentally incapable.

 

Helen

For all that you wrote, I still didn't see the words "free-will" in any scripture verse. I am not saying you don't make choices. I am saying the choices you make do not come from a "free-will".

"Free-will" implies that man is free from any outside influence. That is simply untrue, according to scripture.

Jesus says in John 8:34, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." and 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Therefore, according to scripture, all are slaves to sin outside of salvation in Christ. A slave does the will of the master who owns him. If you are slave to sin, then you obey sin. If you are a slave to Christ, you obey Christ.

By the way, the idea of "free-will" is the oldest lie of Satan. What was the tree in the garden? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eve thought she would be wise to discern good from evil. The implication is that she would be able to choose the good over the evil, of her own "free-will". She and Adam rebelled against God, they wanted to make "free-will" choices, and the race of man was enslaved to sin.

Rozy

I know you didn't address me, but I hope you don't mind my offering an answer to your question, "Why do we need to do anything."

Because we are slaves to Christ, and He told us to. We obey the Master who owns us. We are part of His plan of redemption, and it is for our benefit and the benefit of those who will believe unto salvation.

peace to you

 

You won't see "Trinity" in any Scripture verse, either.

"Choose this day whom you will serve", among many, many other passages in the Bible, indicates that man has the freedom to make up his own mind, outside influences or not!

Free will means not that you have freedom from outside influences, but that you have freedom despite outside influences, to make up your own mind about what you want.

 

I like the verse that says, 'But you will not come to me that you might have life.' That verse plainly shows man has a free-will. Man will not come to Christ.....

 

Helen keeps absolutely nailing this. Very nice.

As for me and my house...

canady, you are skirting predestination and making illogical semantical leaps.

If all is predetermined according to a plan founded before the beginning of human time, why would there be a need for a sacrifice? Why would there be a need for evangelism.

Because Christ said so?

Why would Christ say so if all was predetermined? Christ loves PEOPLE not PUPPETS.

Again, foreknowledge and predetermination do not share the same definition.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Belief connotates an action. The action of choice.

 

May it suffice to say that I believe that God will be well pleased with how things eventually turn out when all is said and done.

 

May it suffice to say that I believe that God will be well pleased with how things eventually turn out when all is said and done. </font>[/QUOTE]

Copout....but a good one.

 

Helen

The concept of the Trinity is clearly taught in scripture. The concept of "free-will" is not. As a matter of fact, "free-will" is clearly rejected in many passages of scripture.

peace to you

 

Concept of free-will not taught in scripture?

Do we throw away Joshua 24:15? 'Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.' That is free-will.

 

Choice..yes. "Free-will"..no. Your choices are influenced by the sin in your life, your fallen nature, the influence of Satan and his demons, the influence of fallen friends and relatives, and most importantly, the influence of God the Holy Spirit as He brings us to conviction, repentance and faith.

What about Jesus telling us that those who sin are slaves to sin? Does a slave have a "free-will"? Of course not. That is His point. You do the will of the master who owns you. Without Christ, you are owned by sin. Your "will" is enslaved to sin.

By the way, if you look at that passage (John 8:31+), you will see the pharisees denying they are enslaved to anyone. Being enslaved to sin blinds you to your enslavement. What a delusion! That is why I say the concept of "free-will" is part of the oldest lie of Satan. You are a slave, and do the will of your master, and you don't even know it.

peace to you

 

Not one word you just wrote removes choice.

Influence does not remove choice.

Slavery does not remove choice.

Will of another does not remove choice.

No catch-phrase is needed to refute the illogical conclusions you are making. You can call it FREE WILL or anything else you want to. What you cannot do is remove choice. Sorry, but you will not get me to subscribe to Puppetism.

Choices have consequences (good or bad). If the choices are assumed there would be no need for consequences.

What color shirt did you wear today?

 

Whosoever will is free-will, but "free-will" as described by Freewill Baptists is not. Neither is the calvinistic "election" biblical.

Better check out Romans 6 again canady, we choose whom we serve, trhat is our will excercised.

 

it is crazy to thing one would not have free will to choose before salvation, and have free will to choose after salvation.

Free will can be seen clean back in the garden of Eden. God told Adam not to eat of the tree in the midst of the garden. Adam, by his own free will, disobeyed. Eve was not enslaved to sin before she ate of the fruit. And she was not enslaved to sin until she gave the fruit to Adam. For it was not until Adam ate that both of their eyes were opened and they realized they were naked. Adam was not enslaved to sin before he partook of that fruit, but after. And then, of his own free will, he tried to hide from God

 

I would gladly be the puppet of Almighty God, and do His will and only His will. I pray my "will" be conformed to His. I pray He take total control of my life, even if it means telling me what color shirt to wear. After all, He knows best. I am not ashamed to be the slave of Christ. Better one day as the puppet of God than a lifetime of "freedom" in the world (not freedom but the delusion of "freedom").

He that sins is a slave to sin. Believe it or not; it is beyond me how you can say I am somehow removing "choice" when I clearly said "choice" was there, rozy.

I have read Romans 6 again, Salamander. Maybe you should as well. It says those that have died in Christ are freed from sin. What does that mean? It means they are freed from the control of sin in their lives; the enslavement of sin over their lives.

How can you take a passage that tells us how Christ frees us from the control that sin has over our lives and twist it to mean we have "free-will" without Christ?

standingfirminChrist

Adam and Eve may have been the only two people with true "free-will" since only with those two was it possible that they not sin. I will mediate on it.

I have said all I can. I am done with this for now.

peace to you

 

What about Jesus telling us that those who sin are slaves to sin? Does a slave have a "free-will"? Of course not. That is His point. You do the will of the master who owns you. Without Christ, you are owned by sin. Your "will" is enslaved to sin.

If this were true, then Paul would not have had to write to slaves to tell them to obey their masters! The fact is that slaves have a choice regarding whether to obey willingly or rebel. This has to do with slaves of righteousness, too, or the writer to Hebrews would not have to remind about discipline in chapter 12. Being a slave is not being a programmed robot. It means you are owned, but it does not mean your state of mind is controlled.

Everyone has free will. Everyone is free to want what they don't have, appreciate what they do have, obey, or disobey. This, I think, is a major mistake Calvinism has -- thinking that because we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness that our hearts are not free to desire, to appreciate, to respond one way or another.

 

Helen

You keep confusing human will with "free-will".

 

And you have misread Ephesians 6.5-6

"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart."

Paul's point is not that they had a "choice" to obey or rebel; but rather, as they obey, their heart attitude should be one of obedience toward God, not man.

peace to you