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Post 39 Dave said: "Think of the faith in Ephesians as James, not Paul." Dave meant to say: "Think of the faith in Hebrews as James, not Paul." Ephesians 2:8 would be the initial faith that justifies and enters us into that grace, and life, as Paul said in Romans 5:1-2.

Hey Ken You're showing how death turns into life, but, if there is innocence in ignorance, then when does innocence turn into guilt? Or do you think that guilt is something we are born with, even before we sin?

Hey Paleouss Logically, I keep it simple. God is not bound by time, so there is no thinking process. The logical process is not in the thinking, but in the overall plan. What is available to us is simply how it is laid out in Scripture and played out in time. Beyond that it would only be guess...

Think of it like this, Dave. If you agree that there is some innocence that results from ignorance, then it stands to reason that a complete ignorance is a complete innocence. Unless you want to prove that the nature itself condemns us. As far as I know, the only places in Scripture that...

Dave Grace is what is the gift. It comes by faith. That's what Ephesians 2:8 is saying. It's saying the same thing as Romans 5:1. The life and the grace are simultaneous. Jesus authored that life (Acts 3:15), and that life is called faith in Ephesians. Ephesians is speaking about the ongoing...

Hey Ken Yes, God is sovereign, I agree. My question to you still stands: Does that mean that they need to actually reach that point of a first sin, before they are guilty? Jesus is not our Head until we are in Christ. And to be in Christ, to receive that grace, it comes by faith. So we are...

That was my point. I only asked to what extent that innocence can go. I never intended to try to go to the point of justifying a man, but a child, an infant is in play. James 1: 14-15 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has...

I was just making a point, that's all. Again, Ecclesiastes should be understood in the context of justification just like Romans 3. Not one man can claim to be righteous without Christ Jesus, for if Abraham (Not righteous--no not one) was saved by works, he has something to boast about. Psalm...

Dave, this is for @Alan Dale Gross too. Babies cry because they are completely dependent on their mothers. If you cry out to God in prayer, literally crying, is that sin? Is it selfish? And the children are being weened off of those habits in their formative years, gently. You'll find...

I agree.

Hey Ken What if we understood the order here in Romans 5:12 to be like this. (1) is the cause of (2). Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as (1) by one man sin entered into the world, (2) and death by sin; ------and so------ (2) death passed upon all men, (1)for that all have sinned. While the guilt may...

Hey Bill Doesn't Romans 9:11 have more to do with lineage and blessing as opposed to salvation? Dave

I think of it as willful blindness confirmed. Kind of like hypocritical judgment. We admit that we know better by judging others and can no longer claim ignorance.

All have sinned and fallen short of God's righteous standards. Yes. The natural path of our sinful nature. Obviously, a point is being made here. Babies don't speak coming straight out of the womb. That would be funny though: "Dang, what the..." "It's cold out here!" :Biggrin "It's the doctors...

No, tradition should not not take the place of Scripture, but it is cultural context that goes back into the times of Scripture. The principle of young people taking on 'religious' responsibility is deeply rooted in Scripture. Many claim that Bar mitzvah came from this passage in Genesis, when...

Hey Dave What made Adam and Eve guilty was the sin. What made it sin and made them accountable for it was eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was the act in combination with the knowledge that made it sin. The knowledge allowed the sin, which begat the sinful nature. It...

I just wanted to throw this into the mix for clarity. I don't know if it changes anything. Can somebody put the point of contention into Laymen's terms for me? I'm getting that it's just about if Jesus needed to satisfy God's justice on our behalf? Don't we need to be in Him to receive that...

I just wanted to note, that when I say ignorance, I'm not speaking of willful ignorance, or suppressing the truth.

I was thinking of this passage when I read those. Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His...

Hey Ken I remember MacArthur's observation in this matter in his two part series, "The Salvation of Infants Who Die". He mentioned how people condemned babies to hell because babies couldn't come to faith, and acted as if they were doing God a service by defending these 'tough doctrines'...