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This begs the question of why the Lord Jesus had to die on the cross, bearing our sins and the curse attached to them. But with regard to your suggestion that God's wrath is only a future event, I refer you to Romans 1:18ff. You should also note that the words 'anger' and 'wrath' are often...

I think you will find that I did not say that Christ is impure. But I am right that nothing impure will enter heaven. Do you believe that Christ has not entered heaven???? That seems to be what you are suggesting. Of course! Good. It is a small but important point that God did not punish...

I really don't think you have. I asked: And also: If you actually have answered these questions, please accept my apologies and point me to where you have done so. The posts come so thick and fast that I may have missed it. Otherwise, I look forward to reading your responses.

I think you should answer some of my questions to you before you expect me to answer any more of yours.

I told you why? Because nothing impure will enter into heaven. We must not only be declared righteous (justified), but we must also be made righteous. No. Romans 3:25-26 applies. No time to write more at present, but surely that is clear enough?

Why on earth would you suppose that? If the debt is paid in full then God can give believers new birth and still be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. Nothing impure will enter the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:27), so unless one is born again he will neither see nor enter the...

Really? One more time. 'For when we were still without strength, Christ died for the ungodly.' Does that mean that God justifies the wicked? YES! 'For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for...

It is a delight to see you quoting some Scripture for a change. Thank you. Will you explain, please, exactly what you understand by 'Christ suffered for sins once for all time'? How is this not God punishing the righteous? And what do you understand by 'for sins'? You seem to be edging...

But your system (if I may call it that) does nothing to satisfy the justice of God. It does not allow God to be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. God gives ungodly people a new birth (I assume that's what you are talking about) and bingo! They have their Get out of...

How about the paralyzed man in Luke 5:20? Man, your sins are forgiven you. Was he saved or not?

If this is so, then there is no hope for anyone as I said. And it will not do for you to say that it is a logical fallacy. It is what you say. Well I think you may be suggesting that He is. Romans 5:6, 8-9. 'For when we were still without strength, in due time, Christ died for the ungodly...

In fact, you were the one who introduced Augustine (post #61 on the 'Disagreements about the atonement' thread). You were also the one who kept introducing the church fathers and, of course, the one who started this thread. Just saying.

Well, we're all in big trouble then! 'As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one!"' It looks like we need a Saviour! But it isn't going to be Jesus. :Frown Unless, of course the Bible is true (Isaiah 53:5-6)! :D

It would need to be re-posted on the Open Forum.

If I had posted posts #1-3, @JonC would have dismissed them as "snippets" and demanded that I write great reams of "context." But let that pass. As I wrote on another thread, Augustine's body of work is vast and he contradicted himself enough for both Roman Catholics and Protestants to claim...

I don't think I am. It's just a question of reading the plain meaning of the verses. 'Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted....' We can surely agree that on the cross our Lord was indeed 'stricken' and 'afflicted' -...

With respect, I think you may have missunderstood the text. "...we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions...", etc. First of all, He was smiiten by God. Isaiah 53:10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to crush Him; He has put Him to grief.' See...

What you don't understand (or choose to forget) is that the Lord Jesus is our Mediator and our Surety or Guarantor. I explained all that on another thread a short while ago, but the gist of it is this. It is an extract from the extended piece that I wrote on this board ten years or more ago...

Lol.... no. @JonC always insisted that a larger portion of Scripture would disprove what anyone could see they were saying. He would have had me typing out the entire corpus of their writings! But he never actually troubled himself to print them out himself. Of course, they aren't...

There was a time when God spoke through a donkey. Do I believe that He could do the same today if He wishes? Absolutely! But I am not going to suppose that all donkeys can talk and only keep quiet because they have nothing to say. Nor am I going to hang about at the nearby Donkey Sanctuary...