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So you are saying that one can be a disciple and not be saved? Then why would Jesus tell the church to go make disciples of all men in Matthew 28:20. Now only part of what you said, I actually agree with, but there's a fundamental issue that you are missing and it's in the definition of chosen.

Judas was called, Judas was elected, Judas was chosen and Judas was given to Christ, and yet John 17:11-12 says he was lost. So either Judas was actually a saved person that lost his salvation, or the Calvinist definitions of election, chosen, given, and call are dead wrong.

RM, you may not have seen the post on post #3 because it got snipped. EWF came straight out and said as a response to this thread said "LOL..idiot zionist", and he does that on every thread I start. Jovert is merely pointing out the obvious to him.

No offense, but I'm not interested in having experience used as an authority on how the Scriptures should be interpreted. This is all too often what charismatics do in attempting to justify their interpretation of "manifestations of the Holy Ghost". While I don't doubt the sincerity of your...

Well if you are sick to death of hearing about it, then stop calling me a Zionist. Pretty simple. You and EWF are the ones that keep throwing the term up and then complain when it gets called out. And do tell how I provoked EWF's comment when the OP has NOTHING to do with being Jewish or...

You fail to see my entire point of the OP. I AGREE that Judas was the son of perdition, and was NEVER saved. No argument from me on that, but you can't claim that and be a consistent Calvinist with how Calvinism views the terms "given" and "shall come to me" and "chosen". Calvinists seem to...

Because calling someone a Calvinist is not an attack on their RACE and it is a term that THEY THEMSELVES IDENTIFY WITH, and do so often with their heads held high. There are many people on here that hold that same views I do in the future restoration of Israel and its role in Bible...

I am a Jew. We're supposed to be dramatic (the whole Holocaust invention thing you know! see Earth Wind & Fire's comment Post#3). I have a reputation to protect:thumbs:

I've read virtually every major book on Calvinism there is when I was in the Presbyterian church. Even my college textbook on systemic theology was by a Calvnist (Wayne Grudem) and all of the textbooks I used for my masters in counseling were Calvinist (Jay Adams, Jim Newheiser). I've read...

THE OTHER SIDE OF CALVINISM-LAURENCE VANCE Start reading at page 1

I think Matthew was simply stating what the majority said. It is like the Jews saying "we have no king but Caesar" and "crucify him" when it says that the crowd said it (John 19:14-15), even though not everyone in the crowd said so. That's why the clarification of verse 25 helps.

If you read the rest of that, after it says every one of them said , "Lord, is it I" then when it got to Judas, he said "MASTER, is it I" in verse 25. Verse 25 shows that Judas was not one of the "every one of them" that asked in verse 22. Also, Matthew 7:21 has a qualifier. "but he that doeth...

Actually, Calvnist's believe in progressive sanctification more than you care do admit. For the Calvinist, Perseverance of the Saints demands that a person who has been elected and saved MUST PERSEVERE in order to prove that they were truly elect, or they were never saved in the first place...

I've posted a new thread on this issue with a problem for Calvinists that they have never given a satisfactory explanation for-JUDAS http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2004763#post2004763

The biggest problem with Calvinist's interpretation of John six is not merely their fundamental misunderstanding of the word "draw". This can be debated back and forth with the Calvinist claiming "no man can come to me except the Father DRAW him", to which the Non Calvinist can reply, "Jesus...