Calvinism View of John 6-The Judas Conundrum

[jonathanD]

What subject you interested in?
I got history secular and Christian, General Systematic Theologies (probably nothing you don't have though) and Philosophy....Literature like crazy.......and everything C.S. Lewis EVER............hmmm......I'm also, along the Literature line a fanatic about folklore....I have a marginal collection of folklore from around the world. Comparison of cultural folklore is fascinating to me.

What'cha got!

Let me check the library and I'll get back with you. I'm under a mountain of paper work right now!

 

[Inspector Javert]

I have Will Durant's entire collection.............(history), brilliant, and no longer in print.

Even though he is a secular historian, he's probably the most honest one I've ever read. (He's no Howard Zinn). There's actually some preachable stuff there:

Lemme give you a hard-back of "Our Oriental heritage"

OH!!!! DID I mention DAVE BARRY!!!!

Now you lickin' your chops ain't-cha!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have Will Durant's entire collection.............(history), brilliant, and no longer in print.

Even though he is a secular historian, he's probably the most honest one I've ever read. (He's no Howard Zinn). There's actually some preachable stuff there:

Lemme give you a hard-back of "Our Oriental heritage"

OH!!!! DID I mention DAVE BARRY!!!!

Now you lickin' your chops ain't-cha!

Now you are talking with Will Durant:thumbsup: I have some of his Civilization series when they were on sale at Barnes & Nobel. He & his wife researched for years before writing those books. Amazing stuff!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am a Jew. We're supposed to be dramatic (the whole Holocaust invention thing you know! see Earth Wind & Fire's comment Post#3). I have a reputation to protect:thumbs:

Please ...your deluding yourself that you do! Too bad we cant let my origional comment stand because that's what you truly are.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Please refrain from name calling. It doesn't do anything to give you credibility with those you disagree with.

Truth is my goal... this guy has a hidden agenda & exposing it reveals truth. If we can say Calvinist then why cant we say the "Z" word...or is this a little to heady for your liking?

 

[Inspector Javert]

Now you are talking with Will Durant:thumbsup: I have some of his Civilization series when they were on sale at Barnes & Nobel. He & his wife researched for years before writing those books. Amazing stuff!

Must agree :thumbsup:......not to sound misogynistic....but MOST of Will's research was accomplished before he married Ariel....

But, Ariel was a great match for him, and was indeed quite the "help-meet" as far as helping his research, being quite well-educated herself, and being able to bring together the knowledge he'd accrued into publishable form.

The first editions of the series were ascribed only to "Will Durant"...the second and third editions and the later portions of the series always include in the authorship "Will and Ariel Durant".

Ariel was a good scholar of history in her own right, and she apparently helped bring the conclusion to the series together in a very good way....

LOVE THOSE BOOKS!!!

It doesn't surprise me that the revisionists have insured that the Durant's work is out of print. It CAN'T be that they don't sell or WON'T sell.......................I legitimately believe a sort of "conspiracy-theory"/"cover-up" sort of thing about why they are out of print. They were BRILLIANT histories!

I stand impressed Mr. E.W.F that you are familiar with, and appreciate them.

Hat's off to you sir! :wavey:

 

[Inspector Javert]

Now you are talking with Will Durant:thumbsup: I have some of his Civilization series when they were on sale at Barnes & Nobel. He & his wife researched for years before writing those books. Amazing stuff!

Admit it though.....like Jonathan......what you REALLY WANT is some of my Dave Barry collection....ADMIT IT!!! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Must agree :thumbsup:......not to sound misogynistic....but MOST of Will's research was accomplished before he married Ariel....

But, Ariel was a great match for him, and was indeed quite the "help-meet" as far as helping his research, being quite well-educated herself, and being able to bring together the knowledge he'd accrued into publishable form.

The first editions of the series were ascribed only to "Will Durant"...the second and third editions and the later portions of the series always include in the authorship "Will and Ariel Durant".

Ariel was a good scholar of history in her own right, and she apparently helped bring the conclusion to the series together in a very good way....

LOVE THOSE BOOKS!!!

It doesn't surprise me that the revisionists have insured that the Durant's work is out of print. It CAN'T be that they don't sell or WON'T sell.......................I legitimately believe a sort of "conspiracy-theory"/"cover-up" sort of thing about why they are out of print. They were BRILLIANT histories!

I stand impressed Mr. E.W.F that you are familiar with, and appreciate them.

Hat's off to you sir! :wavey:

Its simply the dumbing down of America....I attribute it to mental complacency.

 

[The Archangel]

Why I'm responding to you is a mystery to me--perhaps it's because you've begged the question by ignoring something in a text you've quoted.

Furthermore, why you're still allowed to post here after saying that all Calvinists hate Jews is beyond me. Had you been a Calvinist and said such a thing, you'd have been banned immediately. However, being that you're a non-Calvinist, you've received a free pass.......but, I digress.

In any event, you ask the Calvinists to answer a supposed conundrum, which is, indeed, easily solvable, while ignoring this conundrum in your own theology:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
John 17:11-12

How can it be that Judas was the "son of perdition?" For him to be labeled as such, even by Christ Himself, means that he was beyond salvation. How is this possible in your schema? After all, won't Arminians argue that everyone is "saveable" if they will only choose Christ? The label "son of perdition" or "son of destruction" states, rather harshly, that there is no chance Judas would be saved as he is not part of the elect and there is no salvation available to him.

The Archangel

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Admit it though.....like Jonathan......what you REALLY WANT is some of my Dave Barry collection....ADMIT IT!!! :smilewinkgrin:

Who is Dave Barry?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why I'm responding to you is a mystery to me--perhaps it's because you've begged the question by ignoring something in a text you've quoted.

Furthermore, why you're still allowed to post here after saying that all Calvinists hate Jews is beyond me. Had you been a Calvinist and said such a thing, you'd have been banned immediately. However, being that you're a non-Calvinist, you've received a free pass.......but, I digress.

In any event, you ask the Calvinists to answer a supposed conundrum, which is, indeed, easily solvable, while ignoring this conundrum in your own theology:



How can it be that Judas was the "son of perdition?" For him to be labeled as such, even by Christ Himself, means that he was beyond salvation. How is this possible in your schema? After all, won't Arminians argue that everyone is "saveable" if they will only choose Christ? The label "son of perdition" or "son of destruction" states, rather harshly, that there is no chance Judas would be saved as he is not part of the elect and there is no salvation available to him.

The Archangel

Thank you!

 

[saturneptune]

I am a Jew. We're supposed to be dramatic (the whole Holocaust invention thing you know! see Earth Wind & Fire's comment Post#3). I have a reputation to protect:thumbs:

Back to the op, Judas has nothing to do with election to salvation. Jesus chose twelve to be disciples. Nothing says the disciples were saved, and obviously they were not. To equate the story of Judas the man's free will is about as an off the wall idea as I have seen on this board.

In case it does not sink in, Judas was not one of the chosen before the foundation of the world. By the way, neither was Pharaoh, Ahab, Cain, Simeon, the rich young ruler, or the rich man in the parable of Lazarus.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Archangel................Had you been a Calvinist and said such a thing, you'd have been banned immediately.

I've read posts by you for years. You have NEVER said ANYTHING stupid.................UNTIL now.

You are an intelligent and respectable worthy Calvinist Theologian with knowledge. (I've read numerous postings on your blog). Many of which, I don't agree with, but are at least intelligent, well thought out, and reasonable....

But that statement......

That's the first sheerly STUPID thing, I've ever read from you.


If you believe that...than you are smoking some serious version of crack. DUMB...DUMB DUMB.

Sir....the fact is....that you can threaten to KILL someone on this board if you are a Calvinist and NOT get banned. I know....I've seen it happen
That's a fact.

To think that the sissy complaint YOU HAVE merits banning?? That's laughably stupid sir.....laughably. :laugh::laugh:

My wife's brother...(now banned got a total of 6 points before he was banned)...and they ALL came from Arminian/non-cal moderators...(and he deserved them when it happened, and they adjudicated fairly)..................You don't know a FIG about the moderation practices of B.B. if you believe that preposterous notion you just posted to Dr. J. What a JOKE!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And whom might I ask threatened to kill someone on the board?

 

[DrJamesAch]

Truth is my goal... this guy has a hidden agenda & exposing it reveals truth. If we can say Calvinist then why cant we say the "Z" word...or is this a little to heady for your liking?

Because calling someone a Calvinist is not an attack on their RACE and it is a term that THEY THEMSELVES IDENTIFY WITH, and do so often with their heads held high.

There are many people on here that hold that same views I do in the future restoration of Israel and its role in Bible prophecy...in fact, many of you criticize dispensationalism because of it. Yet the only person you call "the Z word" IS ME simply because I'm Jewish.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Why I'm responding to you is a mystery to me--perhaps it's because you've begged the question by ignoring something in a text you've quoted.

Furthermore, why you're still allowed to post here after saying that all Calvinists hate Jews is beyond me. Had you been a Calvinist and said such a thing, you'd have been banned immediately. However, being that you're a non-Calvinist, you've received a free pass.......but, I digress.

In any event, you ask the Calvinists to answer a supposed conundrum, which is, indeed, easily solvable, while ignoring this conundrum in your own theology:



How can it be that Judas was the "son of perdition?" For him to be labeled as such, even by Christ Himself, means that he was beyond salvation. How is this possible in your schema? After all, won't Arminians argue that everyone is "saveable" if they will only choose Christ? The label "son of perdition" or "son of destruction" states, rather harshly, that there is no chance Judas would be saved as he is not part of the elect and there is no salvation available to him.

The Archangel

You fail to see my entire point of the OP. I AGREE that Judas was the son of perdition, and was NEVER saved. No argument from me on that, but you can't claim that and be a consistent Calvinist with how Calvinism views the terms "given" and "shall come to me" and "chosen".

Calvinists seem to like to pick and choose definitions that support their theology in one place where such terms would apply to salvation, and then obfuscate in places such as John 6 where a consistent interpretation of those terms would lead to the result I stated in the OP

And your comment about being "banned immediately" if what I said [which I didn't actually say] were said by a Calvinst is absurd. I watched HOS get banned for calling a certain Calvinist theologian an idiot. They snipped the "Z" word, and left the idiot part, so do tell me how that's consistent with your view?

I never said that all Calvinists hate Jews, I pointed to ONE PERSON who made a racist comment.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Thank you!

You thank whoever you want, E.W.F....

I don't take it personally, and don't mind the fact...
But YOU SIR......YOU......threatened to KILL someone on this board...........and you aren't banned.

That's fine with me actually, but what you CAN'T fairly do.....is cry like a girl along with Archangel that someone you have a hatred for isn't banned only because they aren't Calvinist like you are.

I realize that there is a latent hatred of dirty Jews like Dr. J:

But your Hitlerian hatred of dirty Jews like Dr. J. isn't my concern.
Post as you will, and I will treat you as I have done.....but don't you DARE...cry foul that Dr. J....isn't banned while you remain a poster.

 

[saturneptune]

Because calling someone a Calvinist is not an attack on their RACE and it is a term that THEY THEMSELVES IDENTIFY WITH, and do so often with their heads held high.

There are many people on here that hold that same views I do in the future restoration of Israel and its role in Bible prophecy...in fact, many of you criticize dispensationalism because of it. Yet the only person you call "the Z word" IS ME simply because I'm Jewish.

I am, and no doubt other posters, are sick to death about hearing about your ethnic background. It has nothing to do with theology, Scripture, or the Gospel. Had you not made that fact apparent, no one would have ever known. IMO, you do not care about sovereignty, free will or any other doctrine. You are here to cause division, provoke others into comments that result in infractions, and to just generally stir the pot. There is nothing genuine about your postings.

 

[Inspector Javert]

And whom might I ask threatened to kill someone on the board?

You did...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because calling someone a Calvinist is not an attack on their RACE and it is a term that THEY THEMSELVES IDENTIFY WITH, and do so often with their heads held high.

There are many people on here that hold that same views I do in the future restoration of Israel and its role in Bible prophecy...in fact, many of you criticize dispensationalism because of it. Yet the only person you call "the Z word" IS ME simply because I'm Jewish.

And where does that qualify as an attack on your being a Jew? Are there no Christian Zionists and are you not a Christian?