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Yes, it is this simple. We who distinguish between divine foreknowledge and divine predetermination hold to either/or not both/and. We believe that God either permits it or he actively determined it. You believe that God both determines it and permits it. The distinction is very clear and it...

A work accomplished by His active agency. Something HE brought to pass by His actively intervening to ensure that it happened. Like the inspiration of the scriptures. I'd say there are other things that happen that he could have intervened to prevent, but he remained passive thus permitting...

Thank you. You support the same view as I do: Either/or But, if I know Luke, he will be able to twist your words to somehow make you completely agree with his view: BOTH/AND And Luke believes God does all these evil things ultimately, but he isn't guilty because He does it for good motives...

I believe that too Luke, and if that is all you ever said about what you believe we wouldn't be having this discussion, but alas we all can read what you actually said. BOTH/AND vesus EITHER/OR How does this relate to your false claim that Willis is closer to you than me on this subject when...

I know you believe "BOTH/AND" and he believes "EITHER/OR" because I actually read your words and sentences. I have never denied God's omniscience (which is what you are implying). Willis, and even most Calvinists are far from your views IMO. You can always prove me wrong by simply finding...

Luke, you know I love you bro, but Willis said, "The best way I can see this is that anything that happens, God either allowed it or He directly brought it to pass." And you equate that to your view that God is allowing everything based upon his determination of everything? Really? I know...

That is because you typically only list all the pretty nice stuff, or those things He is actively bringing to pass for the redemption of the world; as if we disagree with those things and you avoid the harsh reality of what your dogma actually teaches. Just own it, Luke believes that Jeffrey...

Right, that is what I was referring to and that is just as I remembered you saying it. Some people, like Willis (the guy you agreed with), believe in bare permission (remember that term?), where as you believe that everything is ordain/decreed/determined and yet also feel the need to tell us...

1. I just added this to YOUR list and for some reason you don't like it. Why not? Own it if its true or argue against it if it's not. Your's is the only emotional response here as you are objecting emotionally to the implications of a God who determines that men will molest, kill and eat...

Confused? Luke, he said, "God either allowed it ..." and I've never known you to believe in pure permissive will, right? Just want clarity on this point...you still do believe that God permits that which he has determined, right? I just remember going round and round with you on this point...

True, he is one of the few who remain logically consistent with his views...

Tom, its important not to confuse the moral evil (sin) with calamity (natural evil, such as storms etc). God is Holy. He doesn't even tempt men to sin much less create sin. I don't think that is what you meant, but just wanted to be clear about that distinction.

I agree with this statement, but I fear too many have a concept that sovereignty equals determinism because they presume that the only way for God to ensure His purposes are accomplished and the victory is won is for him to 'play both sides of the chess board.' If they'd just appeal to mystery...

You leave no room between good and evil in your worldview bro. Not even the most Calvinistic Calvinist would say 'nothing' in answer to this question.

And Jeffrey Dahmer never tortured and ate a child but by the divine power and under the purposeful control and determinate counsel of God.....uhhhh, NO.

Thanks for the good replies. What I'm getting to is the point of proof texting as often done by those of the Reformed persuasion who point to the crucifixion of Christ or the inspiration of scripture as supporting a more deterministic worldview. The argument seems to go something like this...

So, what are you saying? The crucifixion wasn't a 'work of God' but the resurrection was? Jonah's commissioning and convincing to go to Nineveh? Paul's calling to apostleship? The writing of the Pilgrim's Progress? The writing of the scriptures? Your last evangelistic encounter where you...

Refreshingly honesty. I believe we all must appeal to mystery on some level. I can live with that... My follow up question would be this: Why not appeal to mystery PRIOR to drawing conclusions that suggest God could be the author of evil...(i.e. deterministic conclusions such as, "if God...

46 views and no takers? :(

What makes an event in history uniquely a 'work of God' in a more deterministic worldview? In other words, if all events, choices and acts are divinely brought to pass through His decisive conditioning of all things that occur (however you want to nuance it), then what is different about...