“The doctrine of baptisms” (Hebrews 6:1-2)

[Moriah]

I've given 2 distinctly different groups of verses.
How can the UPON verses be seen as salvation verses when they're involved
with tongues, spiritual power, miracles, and such?

Because the Jews needed to know that scriptures were being fulfilled, that Gentiles were now reconciled to God.

They are One, but They're not all "the same"; They are 3 separate Persons (Manifestations, actually).
Jesus said the Father would be sending the Holy Spirit to be INSIDE us (John 14:26).
Jesus did not say the Father would be sending Him (Jesus) back again, etc.
C'mon now, everyone distinguishes between the Three as not being "the same".

You do not believe the Spirit is the Lord, even though the Bible says so. See 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.

Yes, in one sense, They are One ... If you have One, you have all Three.
But, for further enlightenment, you need to find the thread: An incredibly awesome TRINITY passage!
John 14 says They all come INSIDE, but only the Holy Spirit STAYS to teach, etc.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One. The Bible does not say they all come inside but only the Holy Spirit stays. The Spirit IS the Lord. The Father and the Son are the same, and they have the same Spirit.

This was true on the Day of Pentecost. But, in Paul's day, tongues in church were "a sign"
for the unbelievers that God was indeed speaking to the church.
Suppose you were unsaved, and your closest friend became born again.
And you 2 gals went to church, and she spoke in tongues!
And the anointing on her was so strong that she began weeping.
Are you going to tell me that you will accuse her of trying to fool you?

As I said before, there was a time I thought I was speaking in tongues and even interpreting what I said, until the Holy Spirit had me realize I was only doing what man had convinced me of, and that I did not study what the written Word of God said.
Just because someone starts weeping during what she believes are tongues, is no proof of it being from God.

1) Tongues are used by the individual to praise God during praise and worship at church.

Tongue speakers in the Bible times were doing that IF someone else were there to interpret. The reason they could praise God in tongues were because God did not take the gift away if no one was there to understand.

2) Tongues are used by the individual to praise God at home.

Does the individual always interpret what they say? If not, then your mind is fruitless. A fruitless mind is against what God says.

3) Tongues are meant in Romans 8:26 (I don't need the Holy Spirit to groan for me).

The Holy Spirit does NOT groan for us. When all we can do is groan, then the Holy Spirit speaks to God for us. Those claiming to speak in tongues misunderstand those scriptures.

4) Tongues are used by God through an individual to give a message to the church,
but an interpreter must be present.
God chooses to give the prophecy in tongues, or in English ... depending on, well, you ask Him.

What kind of message to the church? Why would God not speak to you in English? The Bible has all the knowledge we need!

Sometimes, the vessel cannot put the incredible spiritual information into his own words,
so he just let's it come out in tongues.

Tell the “tongue speaker” to open the Bible and read what God has had written. It is already written and can be read easily in English.

Congrats ... you're making more sense than you did a few weeks ago ... communication!

Maybe you are learning to read what I say and stop being rude, except for little remarks here and there. Can you not control yourself?

Hi, Biblicist ... enjoying this?

What do you care so much about what Biblicist thinks of the two of us discussing? He could not care less about you or me. Does it really matter?

 

[Moriah]

Sure it's a secular university.
I didn't study religion there.
What does that have to do with anything?
I want to speak to an Administrator.
This is getting more ridiculous every day.
Who is this guy, DHK?
Moriah, come and save me ... you're a-lookin' better and better every day, girl!
.

You should have treated me better. Lol
You can get into deep discussion with me, or you can center your discussion with people who will just speak rudely to you.

 

[evangelist-7]

Moriah,

Thanks for your post #41 ... I'll get back to you later about it.

Just received this in another forum ... it will explain A LOT to you about TONGUES:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Dru2e7Uak&feature=related
.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

Because the Jews needed to know that scriptures were being fulfilled, that Gentiles were now reconciled to God.
I just don't understand how this makes any sense.

You do not believe the Spirit is the Lord, even though the Bible says so. See 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.
Yes, the Spirit has come to represent the Lord ... this I do see.
If you have One, you really have all Three.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One. The Bible does not say they all come inside but only the Holy Spirit stays. The Spirit IS the Lord. The Father and the Son are the same, and they have the same Spirit.
I'm a nice guy ... I found this for you ...
“And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
… If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
… But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:16-26).

As I said before, there was a time I thought I was speaking in tongues and even interpreting what I said, until the Holy Spirit had me realize I was only doing what man had convinced me of, and that I did not study what the written Word of God said. Just because someone starts weeping during what she believes are tongues, is no proof of it being from God.
No, but it proves to her closest friend that she sincerely believes that God is touching her.
Most spiritual things are impossible to PROVE, so it's about God revealing Himself and/or spiritual Truth.

Tongue speakers in the Bible times were doing that IF someone else were there to interpret. The reason they could praise God in tongues were because God did not take the gift away if no one was there to understand.
That wasn't true for most of the times when believers were being baptised with the Holy Spirit
with the EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues.
Where in Acts were tongues interpreted?
Ditto when I spoke my few words during my baptism (see the testimony).

Does the individual always interpret what they say? If not, then your mind is fruitless. A fruitless mind is against what God says.
The person with the gift of interpretation is used by God to interpret the message given in tongues.

The Holy Spirit does NOT groan for us. When all we can do is groan, then the Holy Spirit speaks to God for us.
Those claiming to speak in tongues misunderstand those scriptures.
I'm not positive what that verse is saying ... I haven't researched it thoroughly.

What kind of message to the church? Why would God not speak to you in English? The Bible has all the knowledge we need!
Don't you think that believers can use PERSONAL advice from the Lord?
What about the guy who shouldn't have gone to church that day?
Suppose a church is praying about whether it's God's will to build an addition.
I guess it would be nice if God gave them His answer.

Tell the “tongue speaker” to open the Bible and read what God has had written. It is already written and can be read easily in English.
Moriah, you have a long way to go ... keep pluggin' away at it!

Maybe you are learning to read what I say and stop being rude, except for little remarks here and there. Can you not control yourself?
They say patience is a virtue ... and I'm anxious to pick up all the virtues I can! Thanks for helping me.

What do you care so much about what Biblicist thinks of the two of us discussing? He could not care less about you or me. Does it really matter?
Do you also have trouble picking up on a little humor?
Whatever, I love you anyway ... may the Lord bless you and keep you!

Sorry for the delay ... I have been really busy!

 

[Moriah]

I just don't understand how this makes any sense.

I will try to explain again.
Speaking in tongues were spoken of in the Old Testament. Isaiah 28:11
That God would speak to the Jews in foreign lips and strange tongues.
We also know that the Old Testament scriptures spoke of God calling people His people who are not His people, and that is the Gentiles.
Speaking in tongues were being fulfilled as scripture stated, and it was also a sign to the Jews that the once “unclean” Gentiles were now able to be God’s people.

I'm a nice guy ... I found this for you ...
“And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
… If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
… But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:16-26).

I think you misunderstand what I said. I was explaining to you that the Bible does not say, “The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit will come to live in you but only the Holy Spirit will stay.” The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is the same, so when one is in you to stay, they all are in you. I have the Spirit of God and Jesus living in me to stay.

No, but it proves to her closest friend that she sincerely believes that God is touching her.
Most spiritual things are impossible to PROVE, so it's about God revealing Himself and/or spiritual Truth.

Just because your wife “sincerely believes”, she is speaking in the biblical tongues, that still does not make her speaking true.

That wasn't true for most of the times when believers were being baptised with the Holy Spirit
with the EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues.

Well, that is when they first received the tongues, and it was evident that they received the Holy Spirit, it was evident they received the Holy Spirit because they were speaking tongues.

Where in Acts were tongues interpreted?

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Acts 2:8-Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongue.

The person with the gift of interpretation is used by God to interpret the message given in tongues.

Do tongue speakers always have an interpretation for the tongues? If not, then their mind is fruitless, and a fruitless mind is not something to be desired.

Don't you think that believers can use PERSONAL advice from the Lord?
What about the guy who shouldn't have gone to church that day?

You did not answer my question. I asked why God would not speak to you in English to say something to you.

As for the guy that should not have gone to church that day…was that message given to him by someone who spoke in tongues? Again, nowadays tongues are not the same as the biblical tongues. People in earthly languages understood the biblical tongues.

Suppose a church is praying about whether it's God's will to build an addition.
I guess it would be nice if God gave them His answer.

Cannot the people figure out whether or not they should build an addition.

Moriah, you have a long way to go ... keep pluggin' away at it!

Could you show scripture that speaking in tongues were for personal prophecy?

They say patience is a virtue ... and I'm anxious to pick up all the virtues I can! Thanks for helping me.

That was nice of you, thanks.

Do you also have trouble picking up on a little humor?

I like a little humor; however, it is hard to find anything humorous about Biblicist, since he speaks so horribly to me.

Whatever, I love you anyway ... may the Lord bless you and keep you!

Wow, now that is a change. I love you too and same to you---may the Lord bless you and keep you.

 

[evangelist-7]

Speaking in tongues were spoken of in the Old Testament. Isaiah 28:11. That God would speak to the Jews in foreign lips and strange tongues. We also know that the Old Testament scriptures spoke of God calling people His people who are not His people, and that is the Gentiles. Speaking in tongues were being fulfilled as scripture stated, and it was also a sign to the Jews that the once “unclean” Gentiles were now able to be God’s people.
Okay, here and below, it's really obvious that you're all hung up on The day Of Pentecost.
You think it is the pattern for all of eternity, or some such thing!
It was just the INITIAL outpouring of the Spirit UPON the FIRST believers.
NEW things have to START somewhere, somehow, some way, etc.
No, ALL things have to START somewhere, somehow, some way, etc.

I think you misunderstand what I said. I was explaining to you that the Bible does not say, “The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit will come to live in you but only the Holy Spirit will stay.” The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is the same, so when one is in you to stay, they all are in you. I have the Spirit of God and Jesus living in me to stay.
The Bible says "We will come to him and make Our home with him" (John 14:23).

Just because your wife “sincerely believes”, she is speaking in the biblical tongues, that still does not make her speaking true.
Biblical tongues? Oh, yes, NT tongues. Tongues from God.
I wouldn't dare say tongues from the Holy Spirit ... we don't want any heart attacks today!

Well, that is when they first received the tongues, and it was evident that they received the Holy Spirit, it was evident they received the Holy Spirit because they were speaking tongues.
Agreed, so ...?

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Acts 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?
9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome
11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongue.
There was no interpretation of tongues done here at all !!!
Obviously, 'twas a miracle. I forget the analysis of this ...
120 speaking in the same unknown (to the Jews) tongue?
And "the crowd" hearing everything in their own specific language? ... Total miracle !!!

Do tongue speakers always have an interpretation for the tongues?
If not, then their mind is fruitless, and a fruitless mind is not something to be desired.
In the church, yes, and Paul explains why. At home, no, and Paul explains why.

You did not answer my question. I asked why God would not speak to you in English to say something to you.
I thought I explained to you why sometimes He speaks to the church in English,
and sometime in tongues (to be interpreted in English).

As for the guy that should not have gone to church that day…was that message given to him by someone who spoke in tongues? Again, nowadays tongues are not the same as the biblical tongues. People in earthly languages understood the biblical tongues.
I said that God told Him personally (not in church, not in tongues).

Cannot the people figure out whether or not they should build an addition.
God speaks to us today, usually in His still small voice.
It's always MANDATORY to make sure it doesn't go against Scripture.
Usually it's best to search out confirmation(s) from trusted spiritual Christians.
And usually it's best to "follow the peace" of God (with no checks "in the Spirit").

Could you show scripture that speaking in tongues were for personal prophecy?
Paul goes into the many differences between personal and corporate.
I'm too lazy at the moment to dig it out. Ever used Google?
But ...
If you mean God prophesing to Mary alone in private ... no.
If not in private, someone could prophecy to Mary in tongues,
but someone would need to interpret (maybe even Mary).

Blessings!

 

[Moriah]

Okay, here and below, it's really obvious that you're all hung up on The day Of Pentecost.
You think it is the pattern for all of eternity, or some such thing!
It was just the INITIAL outpouring of the Spirit UPON the FIRST believers.
NEW things have to START somewhere, somehow, some way, etc.
No, ALL things have to START somewhere, somehow, some way, etc.

During the laying of the foundation, God testified to what Jesus and the Apostles said with by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. See Hebrews 2:4.

So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders. Acts 14:3

God confirmed the message by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders. The message is confirmed.

Biblical tongues? Oh, yes, NT tongues. Tongues from God.
I wouldn't dare say tongues from the Holy Spirit ... we don't want any heart attacks today!

Biblical tongues could be understood by people in earthly languages. Does your wife really believe she is speaking in tongues that can be understood by foreigners in their languages? Not what she thinks God can cause to happen with her gibberish, but what HER tongues/gibberish can do in its self, and that is that foreigners can understand in their languages. The believers in the Bible times who spoke in tongues, they spoke in tongues supernaturally. The believers who supposedly speak in tongues nowadays, they speak gibberish and believe God turns their gibberish into supernatural language, and that is a false doctrine.

Agreed, so ...?

They received the Holy Spirit, and it was evident by their speaking in tongues, that does not mean everyone who receives the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues.

There was no interpretation of tongues done here at all !!!
Obviously, 'twas a miracle. I forget the analysis of this ...
120 speaking in the same unknown (to the Jews) tongue?
And "the crowd" hearing everything in their own specific language? ... Total miracle !!!

There was interpretation, by the Jews themselves, the Jews who understood what the disciples were saying. That is an interpretation.

In the church, yes, and Paul explains why. At home, no, and Paul explains why.

Paul says if they do not understand what they are saying, then their mind is fruitless. Why would you think it is okay to have a fruitless mind just because you are at home?

I thought I explained to you why sometimes He speaks to the church in English,
and sometime in tongues (to be interpreted in English).

There is no reason why God would speak to you in a tongue you do not understand to be interpreted by someone else to say it in English.

Could you show scripture that speaking in tongues were for personal prophecy?
Paul goes into the many differences between personal and corporate.
I'm too lazy at the moment to dig it out. Ever used Google?

I wanted to see if you could find that in scripture where Paul says speaking in tongues is for personal prophecy, because I see no such belief.

But ...
If you mean God prophesing to Mary alone in private ... no.
If not in private, someone could prophecy to Mary in tongues,
but someone would need to interpret (maybe even Mary).

Why would God give a message for someone, first in an unknown tongue, and then need to be interpreted by yet another person? I do not see that anywhere in the Bible.

 

[evangelist-7]

Moriah ...

Dis post is called … “The message is confirmed”.

Da message was delivered and confirmed by you know what … Praise God!
Da message was written down in da NT a few years later.

Da message read and delivered today also needs to be confirmed by you know what.
Why does the SAME message today NOT need to be confirmed today?

I'm sorry, I could only get as far as this ... I badly need another dose of patience.
.

 

[33ad]

Paul's view on baptism

Colossians 2:11-12
New International Version (NIV)
11*In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[a] was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12*having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah ...

Dis post is called … “The message is confirmed”.

Da message was delivered and confirmed by you know what … Praise God!
Da message was written down in da NT a few years later.

Da message read and delivered today also needs to be confirmed by you know what.
Why does the SAME message today NOT need to be confirmed today?

I'm sorry, I could only get as far as this ... I badly need another dose of patience.
.

Hey, if you want to sound as if you have another spirit that speaks using a goofy accent, then go for it girl.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah ...

Dis post is called … “The message is confirmed”.

Da message was delivered and confirmed by you know what … Praise God!
Da message was written down in da NT a few years later.

Da message read and delivered today also needs to be confirmed by you know what.
Why does the SAME message today NOT need to be confirmed today?

I'm sorry, I could only get as far as this ... I badly need another dose of patience.
.

What do you not get? God confirmed the message. When something is confirmed, you do not have to confirm it every single time thereafter and forever, because it has forever been confirmed. God confirmed the message first spoken by the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus Christ as chief cornerstone. God confirming the message stands forever, and does not expire and need to be renewed repeatedly.
Tongues were a gift given when the foundation was being laid and it is finished being laid. God is not confirming the message through your wife’s gibberish, or anyone else in your church. Tongues are for unbelievers to hear the message in their foreign language. How you think that the gibberish spoken in your church is confirming anything is nonsense.