1/3 of randomly tested people in Massachusetts has antibodies to covid

[Calminian]

You know, I’ve nicely told you I would appreciate you stop calling me a liar. I’ve followed by explaining where the figures come from and Gold Dragon even spelled it out for you better than I. So why don’t you grow up and deal with the argument rather than showing your ignorance while you resort to hysterical name calling rather than address the argument?

Do you actually believe the kill rate is 6%? If you say you do, I'll simply say your are passing on a lie ignorantly. If you know it's not 6%, then you are lying. Let me know which it is.

The answer is, no, I will not stop calling the 6% lie a lie. I will call it what it is.

Your accusation against calvinists is also lie, but again, it may be you're just passing it along in ignorance.

And BTW, you've not done anything nicely.

 

[Benjamin]

Do you actually believe the kill rate is 6%? If you say you do, I'll simply say your are passing on a lie ignorantly. If you know it's not 6%, then you are lying. Let me know which it is.

The answer is, no, I will not stop calling the 6% lie a lie. I will call it what it is.

Your accusation against calvinists is also lie, but again, it may be you're just passing it along in ignorance.

And BTW, you've not done anything nicely.

I trust in the strength of the American people to be reasonably minded, responsible and do what is necessary to slow the spread of this virus and ultimately defeat it. The weak links will certainly cause and be responsible for unnecessary deaths and there is much to be said about their behavior, but obviously chasing the rabbit trails of fools on the internet to reason with them is mostly a waste of time and effort. Yes, God is in control and He will sort out the motives of those who have jeopardized the lives of others.

 

[Calminian]

I trust in the strength of the American people to be reasonably minded, responsible and do what is necessary to slow the spread of this virus and ultimately defeat it. The weak links will certainly cause and be responsible for unnecessary deaths and there is much to be said about their behavior, but obviously chasing the rabbit trails of fools on the internet to reason with them is mostly a waste of time and effort. Yes, God is in control and He will sort out the motives of those who have jeopardized the lives of others.

Demonizing any theological group over this Covid 19 issue is the true fool's errand. Condemning theological factions over their perceived response and tying it to their theology is petty. It's a good illustration of the "weak links."

 

[Particular]

That is how influenza deaths work too. All respiratory infections preferentially kill those who have more underlying health conditions who struggle to fight off the disease. But that person would not have died then if it were not for the respiratory infection.

If you want to downplay covid19 deaths because of preexisting conditions, then you have to do the same for influenza. And the gap between severity of covid19 and influenza would be even more pronounced.

Do we stop the world everytime the flu hits? No. We take proper precautions in flu season and stay home when we are sick.
Humans are smart. We do not need to be in a cage like a wild beast at the zoo. Yet, here we are with the blind leading the blind around cages made by men who declare they know best when they know no more than their neighbor whom they rule over.
Will it be a tragedy if you and I die from a virus and go on to live in the presence of the King? What is there to be afraid of? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Luke 12:25-32 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you. “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

 

[Calminian]

Do we stop the world everytime the flu hits? No. We take proper precautions in flu season and stay home when we are sick.....

This is the part that I can't get away from. Yes, Covid is more potent than the flu, but the flu is infectious and it kills. So it's a matter of degree, and if so, what is the line of demarkation? Is there a particular infection rate where we shut everything down? Is there a particular kill rate where we shut everything down?

I can't see how we can sustain this realistically, without destroying global economic stability. There has to be a better way. I'm all for fighting and for distancing, but not to the point of shutting down industries. We've got to change strategies.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Do we stop the world everytime the flu hits? No. We take proper precautions in flu season and stay home when we are sick.

Correct because covid19 is way more infective than the flu and sends way more people to the hospital than the flu with serious viral pneumonia which can then progress further to ARDS/cytokine storm. That happens in flu too but at a significantly lower rate.

For confirmed cases of covid19, the infectivity is twice that of influenza. If you include all the unconfirmed cases from serology testing, it is probably 3-5 times as infective.

For confirmed cases of covid19, the hospitalization rate is about 20 times that of influenza which is why it overwhelms health systems. If you include unconfirmed cases from serology testing it is about 5-15 times that of influenza. Regardless of what percentage you use, it overwhelms health systems much more rapidly than influenza.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Will it be a tragedy if you and I die from a virus and go on to live in the presence of the King? What is there to be afraid of?

Luke 12:25-32 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you. “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Yes this is a good perspective and I think many preachers around the world including my minister recently have turned to this passage.

we have a hope that is beyond this world and a God who is in control in all our trials, even ones that are devastating. But that doesn’t mean he wants us to sit around and do nothing. He wants his people to love their neighbour which involves helping them to not get sick from your actions and caring for them as they may be isolated and alone and to point them to the source of our hope.

 

[Calminian]

...He wants his people to love their neighbour which involves helping them to not get sick....

These are platitudes though. Loving should be universal, and not isolated to one particular group. You also need to show love to those who's lives are being destroyed economically. You also need to show love to those in food lines. You have to show love not only to those in the present, but those in the future that will be hit by long term economic depression.

I think Christians on both sides of the debate have love in view. There's just disagreement on which strategy is more loving.

 

[Gold Dragon]

These are platitudes though. Loving should be universal, and not isolated to one particular group. You also need to show love to those who's lives are being destroyed economically. You also need to show love to those in food lines. You have to show love not only to those in the present, but those in the future that will be hit by long term economic depression.

I think Christians on both sides of the debate have love in view. There's just disagreement on which strategy is more loving.

Yes we should also be loving about their future which we will be able to do if they are still alive then to experience it.

 

[Calminian]

Yes we should also be loving about their future which we will be able to do if they are still alive then to experience it.

Which again, is a very unhelpful platitude. We're back to the post Particular made about the Flu. The Flu also kills, and technically, we could cut down on infections and flu deaths by shutting down the country. By the platitude you just offered, the only loving thing to do would be to shut down industry and force everyone one indoors, even for the flu. As you said, the future of many depends on it.

But we've never done this and never will. It's an unthinkable proposition.

So getting away from platitudes, we need a helpful line of demarkation. What is the threshold we should look to for shutting down industry? Should we shut down the country like this again for a similar epidemic? What is the threshold? What would be the threshold for a biological attack? We can't answer these questions with meaningless platitudes that imply that we shut down even for the flu. We need meaningful answers.

 

[Gold Dragon]

The Flu also kills, and technically, we could cut down on infections and flu deaths by shutting down the country.

Why would you do that? Flu infections do not overwhelm our health systems and cause lots of unecessary deaths that could otherwise be prevented. The peak of the flu season may strain a few hospitals or districts but not overwhelm them.

Covid19 can overwhelm an entire nation's health system in 2 months if left unchecked. That is because of its high infectivity and hospitalization rates. Fortunately its mortality rate is quite low as long as your health system is not overwhelmed.

Like it is here in Australia where aggressive testing, contact tracing, early lockdowns and coordinated effort by all levels of government has kept total cases low and resulted in a case fatality rate of 1%, only 75 people to date.

Australia as a whole has had less than 100 confirmed cases per day for several weeks now and our number of active cases has been dropping every day for 2 weeks. It is defintiely time to open things up. However it will be a gradual process because our governments listen to their public health advisors and know that cases and deaths will increase as restrictions are lifted and it will require vigilance to keep the second wave smaller than the first. We may have to go into partial regional, state or national lockdowns again if things look like they are getting out of control.

 

[Calminian]

Why would you do that? Flu infections do not overwhelm our health systems and cause lots of unecessary deaths that could otherwise be prevented. The peak of the flu season may strain a few hospitals or districts but not overwhelm them.....

I didn't suggest that. I was just addressing your platitude that we need to shut down for every life. Are you forgetting all your prior posts?? That's the standard you offered, not me. You keep going back and forth.

Now if your new standard is not about every single life that may be lost by flu or cv19, and only about hospital capacity, then yes, things should all be opening up now, with the exception of NY.

NY is the only area that's been even close to overwhelming the healthcare system, and with Trump's assistance, it never came close to happening. Take NY and bad decisions by Cuomo out of the equation, and things are pretty mild. Let's open up!

Sweden practiced social distancing but stayed open. Reports now say they're within weeks of herd immunity. We may want to look to them, and other states like SD that never closed, going forward.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I didn't suggest that. I was just addressing your platitude that we need to shut down for every life.

Strawmen much? I have never stated this. Shutdowns have always been about controlling the infection rate to keep health systems from being overwhelmed.

In terms of the loving thing to do for your neighbour, it would be to see how you can minimize your contributions to spreading a disease that could kill your neighbour as well as looking out for their future needs after they survive. The two do not have to be pitted against each other unless your politics dictate that they are.

 

[Calminian]

Strawmen much? I have never stated this. Shutdowns have always been about controlling the infection rate to keep health systems from being overwhelmed.

In terms of the loving thing to do for your neighbour, it would be to see how you can minimize your contributions to spreading a disease that could kill your neighbour as well as looking out for their future needs after they survive. The two do not have to be pitted against each other unless your politics dictate that they are.

You're wishy washy, back and forth constantly on this. I don't think you've even made up your own mind of what the actual line of demarkation is. First you say it's whatever will save the most lives. Then you go back and say it's about the overwhelming of the healthcare system. You keep moving the goal posts forward, then backward, then forward again.

This is illustrative of where the media is right now. In the beginning, it was merely about hospitals. Once it became apparent that only NY and a couple other areas would even come close to overwhelming their capacity, it became about saving every possible life. But when you try to apply this to the flu, it's back to the hospitals again.

 

[Gold Dragon]

You're wishy washy, back and forth constantly on this. I don't think you've even made up your own mind of what the actual line of demarkation is. First you say it's whatever will save the most lives. Then you go back and say it's about the overwhelming of the healthcare system. You keep moving the goal posts forward, then backward, then forward again.

The quote feature is helpful if you accuse me of saying something. I have never said the lockdowns are about saving as many lives as possible. It has always been about keeping the health system from getting overwhelmed because of the infectivity and hospitalization rate of covid19.

Over and over again I’ve said this from my very first post on this forum about covid19.

Please listen to Trump now

Yes do not panic because if you are young and healthy, you are likely to get a very mild illness that is similar to a cold, recover and then be immune. But you are not the ones we in the medical field are worried about. But you are the ones who can make the difference between this becoming a really bad epidemic for the US or a complete disaster for the US.

Because if this virus is just allowed to go unchecked, your hospitals and ICUs will get overrun very quickly.

And again
Corona virus death rate exaggerated due to insufficient testing

This one I specifically say it is not about preventing every death
COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate Shows Promise

And more
Biophysicist Levitt says Corona is slowing down

Vaccine to be ready this fall- early winter, Trump was right, coming soon.

 

[Calminian]

The quote feature is helpful if you accuse me of saying something. I have never said the lockdowns are about saving as many lives as possible. It has always been about keeping the health system from getting overwhelmed because of the infectivity and hospitalization rate of covid19.

Over and over again I’ve said this from my very first post on this forum about covid19.

Please listen to Trump now


And again
Corona virus death rate exaggerated due to insufficient testing

This one I specifically say it is not about preventing every death
COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate Shows Promise

And more
Biophysicist Levitt says Corona is slowing down

Vaccine to be ready this fall- early winter, Trump was right, coming soon.

Evasion, backpedaling, moving goal posts. Trump's not going to bail you out. You're not able to follow conversations and argue coherently. Changing the subject is not going to work.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Evasion, backpedaling, moving goal posts. Trump's not going to bail you out. You're not able to follow conversations and argue coherently. Changing the subject is not going to work.

It is amazing how easily you lie to yourself in just a few posts. And all of you do the exact same thing when your own words back yourself into a corner and you can’t face overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It must be the same handbook you are all reading.

 

[Calminian]

It is amazing how easily you lie to yourself in just a few posts. ...

Hmmm. Just what a guy lying to himself would say...

 

[Gold Dragon]

Hmmm. Just what a guy lying to himself would say...

The evidence is all on this page.

 

[Calminian]

The evidence is all on this page.

Indeed. Evidence of moving the goal posts continually. Evidence you can't follow arguments.