1 Cor 1

[SolaSaint]

Brothers and sisters,

There seems to be so much discussion and even division over the Calvinism/Arminianism issue on this board. Not that I believe I can solve this issue with a simple Bible passage but I was studying 1 Corinthians this week and after reading chapters one through three, I feel this points directly at this controversy. I apologize if this has been discussed in prior posts.

The Apsotle Paul appeals to Christians in verse 10 because of divisions due to following different leaders like him or Apollos. Is this the same thing we are doing today and throughout the centuries by following Calvin or Arminius? Later in the chapter Paul calls the preaching of the Gospel foolishness to the world and in verse 21 God has said "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. " To me this says however the Gospel is preached, to the ones who believe it is God's power. Later in chapter three Paul chastizes the Corinthians for wanting to follow certain leaders who planted and watered, and commands them to follow God and not men. I feel God is saying no matter how the Gospel was presented to you, it was the power of God that saves. He also stated that the planter and the one who watered are one. I feel the Calvinist and the Arminian are one in the body of Christ, no need to divide, but come together and praise God for using both to bring about His Kingdom.

If I'm off on my interpretation here please let me have it--with gentleness and respect. :thumbsup:

 

[Tom Butler]

Rick, I have had pastors who were 5-pointers, and pastors who were non-Cals. Without exception, they preached the same gospel, called men and women to Christ in much the same way.

Let me cite my own church as an example of people who differ over Calvinism but refuse to allow it to divide.

The Sunday School Director is a Calvinist. The choir director is a Calvinist, the principal SS teacher is a Calvinist. The pastor is not a Calvinist. Nor is a majority of our folks. Although our views are well known to each other, they are not a barrier to our fellowship, our love for each other, and to our efforts to reach out to the lost.

How can that be? Because we make it happen. The only place I discuss Calvinism is on this board. I don't try to convert my brothers and sisters to Calvinism. I'm looking to point people to Christ.

So, Rick, you are right. We can come together, and the congregation I serve is a great example.

 

[SolaSaint]

That is wonderful to hear Tom, I hope and pray we can all come together and put an end to foolish division.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I prefer the vicious blood-bath:laugh:

Seriously though: You do have a point, although I would not necessarily make the comparison between the Paul-Appollos-Christ thing in I Cor. It can shed some light, but I really think it was the PEOPLE themselves, not doctrines etc..the Corinthians were "following after" remember, these carnal folk were still in need of milk, discussions about Soteriology would have bored them, I see personality cultism more than doctrinal disagreement here. As I see it, the rub between Cals and non-Cals is this:

Calvinists honestly percieve different Soteriologies as impugning God's Sovereignty-a denial of his absolute Omnipotence....

Arminians/non-Cals honestly percieve Calvinism as an imputation of God's Character-a denial of his absolute Love and Justice.

The problem is these are serious doctrines and all of those things: God's Soveregnty, Love, Justice etc... are critical to understand, teach and "earnestly contend for".

As far as the gospel itself is concerned: At brass tacks, a Calvinist (non-hyper anyway) and a non-Cal will and often do, preach and spread the simple gospel as well as anyone. It is of minor annoyance to me (a non-Cal) to be forced to admit that per-capita the PCA is sending out more international missionaries than the SBC at least or any of the other major denoms For the time being. So as far as the Savation of souls is concerned, people are getting the gospel regardless.

That being said, would I continue in a church whose Pastor for instance was a Cal? well, I must admit, no I wouldn't, then again.....in the buckle of the Bible belt where I live, I have a veritable smorgasboard of options out there, I could join a new Church within 5 miles of my house every month for the next 15 years!:laugh:

 

[HAMel]

When the Lord moves across a congregation praise for Him comes from some shouting, some crying with joy, some are moved to raise their arms or to vacate the pew, some remain seated in a conservative manner savoring the special time, some might break out in song or hugging each other.

His presence will move individuals according to what they are capable of and in accordance with their customary demeanor or life situation. Such as, the elderly or lame will usually not jump the pews. The Lord will not cause any of us to make a fool out of ourselves. We do that quite well on our own.

So it is with differing belief systems often based on how we were raised. I'm quite sure there will be many in Glory having come from a variety of basic belief systems. We are not "cloned" and not "programmed" like robots, we are only in His Image.

Division in the Body is the work of Satan as we make said fools out of ourselves never being able to discern the spirits accordingly.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

At some point: there are doctrines that any sincere Bible-believer will ultimately be forced (in good conscience) to no longer fellowship with people who are not doctrinally aligned with them. (Amos 3:3) For many, the particular Soteriology of Cal v. non-Cal is not one of them. I respect that greatly. Not all divisions are foolish ones however. If I were pastoring a Baptist Church and began teaching that baptism were necessary for salvation, would you continue there? Would you give monetary support for a Missionary who believed that speaking in tongues was a necessary proof of Salvation? No, I would hope not at least, it is a matter of where one draws the line.

 

[technol]

We surely do our God a dis-service if we assume we know the entirety of his will, and anyone who thinks differently is worthy of out contempt.

Despite lifelong studies of he words of Christ, Christians still come to different conclusions about many things.

At it's simplest, the OT exhortation of "Do not kill" about as simple a three word sentence as you can get, but it is still subject to many interpretations, and we could all select other portions of scripture to support out own interpretation.

Does it only apply to believers?
Is a judicious killing of criminals OK?
Is killing to protect others OK?
Is killing in war OK?
Is killing of animals OK
Is killing of animals for food OK?
Is killing of insects OK?

Not so simple three word sentence then. Multiply that by our understanding of the many words of Jesus (and/or Paul).

I'm still looking through a glass darkly, and I would never claim to know the definitive definitions of any word of scripture.

God is Love, and that's how I try to interpret words of scripture, but even then my understanding of the enormity of God's love is beyond my understanding.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Does it only apply to believers?
Is a judicious killing of criminals OK?
Is killing to protect others OK?
Is killing in war OK?
Is killing of animals OK
Is killing of animals for food OK?
Is killing of insects OK?

No on 1.),
Yes on all others-the war part does depend on the justification for the particular war; those questions are rather easy to answer

 

[Tom Butler]

At some point: there are doctrines that any sincere Bible-believer will ultimately be forced (in good conscience) to no longer fellowship with people who are not doctrinally aligned with them. (Amos 3:3) For many, the particular Soteriology of Cal v. non-Cal is not one of them. I respect that greatly. Not all divisions are foolish ones however. If I were pastoring a Baptist Church and began teaching that baptism were necessary for salvation, would you continue there? Would you give monetary support for a Missionary who believed that speaking in tongues was a necessary proof of Salvation? No, I would hope not at least, it is a matter of where one draws the line.

You're right. We have to decide which doctrinal differences are deal-breakers, and which are not tests of fellowship. And, this can differ from church to church.

I would certainly agree that the differences you mentioned (tongues, etc) are deal breakers for me. and, in some churches, Cal-nonCal would be a deal breaker. It's just not in my church.

 

[Jon-Marc]

ANYONE who knows Jesus Christ as his/her Saviour is my brother or sister in Christ. If they're born again, then we are all one in Christ.

 

[SolaSaint]

ANYONE who knows Jesus Christ as his/her Saviour is my brother or sister in Christ. If they're born again, then we are all one in Christ.

I agree, but many on this board speak as if we should deny a seat at God's table to those who don't agree with our method of Soteriology.

 

[righteousdude2]

My Sentiments, EXACTLY...

ANYONE who knows Jesus Christ as his/her Saviour is my brother or sister in Christ. If they're born again, then we are all one in Christ.

...you hit-it-out-of-the-park Jon-Marc. :wavey:

Ones overall theology means little to me (because I fully believe it means ABSOLUTELY nothing to God). What I look and listen for is ones testimony of being our being born-again, and given to following Him. This is Scriptural, and without interpretation.

This, "I'm loyal to Peter" and "I'm loyal to Paul" is the substance of which fueds are made, and in my heart of heaeart, it is old, and stupid, and it will be judged for what it is when we stand before God.

Personally speaking: I love Country Gospel music; Southern Blue Grass Gsopel; classic Christian rock; almost every praise and worship song ever written; and on top of this, I'm a wee bit Armenian; some Calvin (especially, once saved-always saved); and a leaning toward Pentecostalism (for their style of worship and praise).

And MOST IMPORTANTLY, I'm Jewish by legal adoption, and Yeshua is the one I live to lift up before all mankind. :thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

You're right. We have to decide which doctrinal differences are deal-breakers, and which are not tests of fellowship. And, this can differ from church to church.

I would certainly agree that the differences you mentioned (tongues, etc) are deal breakers for me. and, in some churches, Cal-nonCal would be a deal breaker. It's just not in my church.

Think that it would be important to realise that this board is NOT the norm in my experience, as churches rarely go so much into 'discussion" as we do here into areas of cal/Arm, eschatology etc!

As a majority of christians prefer to believe that place faith in jesus and be saved, and not into debating the nuances of "is it a gift of faith/are we depraived/is it either common or irresistible grace from God etc?"

also they would hold to jesus coming back, not into when, pre mid post etc!

Just saying do not think our discussions here would be representative of a majority of believers here in USA, unless were teachers/pastors discussions!

 

[DHK]

I have been at the same church a long time and seen a lot of history.
It is a non-Cal church. In the late '70's an elderly lady resigned because she "was of the reformed theology." The pastor then, told her if she really believed what she said then she should logically follow it through to its end, and become a Presbyterian.

A year and a half ago a young man was honest with the church and at a mid-week service apologized to the church and said he would have to resign his membership. He had found a home here, but his soteriology was not the same as ours. By that he meant he was a Calvinist. It was heart-breaking to see him and his wife leave in order to go to a reformed church.

There may be some others that regularly attend that may be Calvinists, but they keep their beliefs to themselves and feel quite at home in the church. It is important to have unity.

 

[SolaSaint]

Think that it would be important to realise that this board is NOT the norm in my experience, as churches rarely go so much into 'discussion" as we do here into areas of cal/Arm, eschatology etc!

As a majority of christians prefer to believe that place faith in jesus and be saved, and not into debating the nuances of "is it a gift of faith/are we depraived/is it either common or irresistible grace from God etc?"

also they would hold to jesus coming back, not into when, pre mid post etc!

Just saying do not think our discussions here would be representative of a majority of believers here in USA, unless were teachers/pastors discussions!

Now that you mention it, I must agree here. I think we get real bold when posting on the Internet when we probably will not be so in person.

 

[Yeshua1]

Think that we Christians MUST take serious matter the unity among the bethren!

I hold to the DoG as best representing the method the Lord has chosen to save us by, BUT also acknowledge that ALL who have placed fasith in jesus are my brothers/Sisters in christ...

Also think that the Lord has i body/faith/baptism etc, so we can agree to disagree on Sotierology/eshatology etc, but as long as we all can agree on essentials of the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints!

 

[Rippon]

Do You Still Have the Same Opinion As You Did?

Ones [sic]overall theology means little to me (because I fully believe it means ABSOLUTELY nothing to God).

Hmmm...

Lots to say about the above. But I will be brief. Logically, based on your statement, a Mormon's beliefs would be just as acceptable as those of an orthodox Christian.

You put a pretty low value on the study and appreciation of the Word of God. One's theology does matter. If you advocate the reverse God is not pleased. "It means ABSOLUTELY nothing to God"! Really? Why put a low premium on biblical knowledge? Why disparage preaching? Because that's what you are doing, among other things.

It says in 2 Timothy 4:3 that the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Sound doctrine is good theology.

Deacons are warned to "keep hold of the deep truths of the faith" in 1 Timothy 3:9. All Christains should aspire to that.