1 Cor. 6:15 defines the nature of the TRUE body of Christ

[Iconoclast]

B,
The apostles quote ot. prophets exhaustively . The Lord Jesus is the full final Prophet....Hebrews 1:1-3.
The O.T. prophets spoke of the NT. church it's people and it's mission.
The apostles included them in their sermons as in Acts 2,3,4.

Other than the one example I mentioned of Agubus.....where are you seeing these NT prophets?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, because it is easier for my opponents to attack me or "Landmarkism" than to deal with the issues I set before them. I give you full credits for at least attempting to deal directly with the issues I posed.




My response is the same as above





For example? When you attempted to read into Ephesians 2:20 Old Testament prophets, I directly responded by demonstrating the order given by Paul denies that as 1 Cor. 12:28 proves ("FIRST apostles, SECONDARILY prophets). That response completely destroyed any pre-first advent church or body of Christ. Your whole position went down the drain as a church=body of Christ cannot exist prior to its own "foundation".

When you freely admitted the baptism in the Spirit was a historical fixed act in time and a completed act and then suggested it was applied like the cross to those previous to the cross, that is not only contradicted by the fact the church=body of Christ cannot predate its own "foundation" consisting entirely of NT materials, BUT it is contradicted by all theologians who interpret the baptism in the Spirit as removing a person out of "Adam" into "Christ" as all such persons are "in Adam" up to the point in time of their salvation and therefore that kind of interpretation of the baptism in the Spirit must be a repeated act with each individual or else they remain "in Adam." It can't be both a completed action and a repeatable action. Moreover, the cross is not a repeated act and cannot be a repeated action by the very nature of what it is. Finally, salvation prior to the cross is directly applied by God to the individual elect according to the "blood" of the everlasting Covenant. Penteost ocurrs AFTER the cross and is not inclusive of the REDEMPTIVE work of Christ on the cross or during his own life. None of this meshes with your theory but contradicts it.

These two facts compleltely dismantles and destroys your whole theory even before we get to the 8 simple propositions which none yet dare tackle as they are necessarily interelated with each other as one demands the other.

So please, point out any serious answer that I glossed over. I know of none! If I have, then please give me the opportunity to address it directly.





The download is free. The book is for sale and it is a revised version and it can be obtained from Bryan Station Baptist Church in Lexington Ky. Happy reading brother!

How then can a person have the Holy Spirit apart from spiritual union in Christ, which is the work of Him Spiritually baptizing us into the Body of Christ? That is NOT done in water baptism!

 

[Yeshua1]

B,
The apostles quote ot. prophets exhaustively . The Lord Jesus is the full final Prophet....Hebrews 1:1-3.
The O.T. prophets spoke of the NT. church it's people and it's mission.
The apostles included them in their sermons as in Acts 2,3,4.

Other than the one example I mentioned of Agubus.....where are you seeing these NT prophets?

There would be none!

 

[Iconoclast]

There would be none!

I believe there were also other NT prophets.....but we cannot know specifically what they said. it could be they spoke only to the new churches through sign gifts as the local churches were still being formed.

Now...that being said.....Biblicist has challenged you to respond scripturally, to his posting. You have not done this. You never seem to do this.
Everyone can just make statements and speculate on every thing.
The thing is.....you need to make a scriptural attempt if you expect anyone to take what you say and take time to respond.

 

[The Biblicist]

B,
The apostles quote ot. prophets exhaustively . The Lord Jesus is the full final Prophet....Hebrews 1:1-3.
The O.T. prophets spoke of the NT. church it's people and it's mission.
The apostles included them in their sermons as in Acts 2,3,4.

Other than the one example I mentioned of Agubus.....where are you seeing these NT prophets?

First, you can't just ignore the explicit order that is given with "first" and "second"!

Second, who in the world do you think wrote the New Testament scriptures. The writer were prophets and predicted in Isaiah 8:16-18 which verse 18 is directly quoted in Hebrews 2:3-12.

Not all the apostles provided scripture and not all the prophets that provided NT scripture were apostles but all who provided scripture were prophets - "secondarily prophets"

There is no mental gymnastics where you can make "second" occur before "first" - Your position is simply wrong!

 

[The Biblicist]

How then can a person have the Holy Spirit apart from spiritual union in Christ, which is the work of Him Spiritually baptizing us into the Body of Christ? That is NOT done in water baptism!

Exactly! And neither is done by spirit baptism as Paul tells you explicity it is done by QUICKENING (Eph. 2:1-10) as a creative act of God. Do you understand what the term "quicken' means? It means to make alive and they were not phsycially dead either! They were spiritually dead and so spiritual separation/death is reversed by spiritual union meaning quickening - made alive

 

[The Biblicist]

Now...that being said.....Biblicist has challenged you to respond scripturally, to his posting. You have not done this. You never seem to do this.
Everyone can just make statements and speculate on every thing.
The thing is.....you need to make a scriptural attempt if you expect anyone to take what you say and take time to respond.

Thank you Icon, I appreciate that someone else can see the obvious.

 

[The Biblicist]

There would be none!

And just who do you think provided the New Testament Scriptures?????? Hint - Isa. 8:16-18 with Heb. 2:3-12 - the Apostles were also prophets as well as Luke, Jude and others. God gives written revelation through prophets.

 

[Iconoclast]

First, you can't just ignore the explicit order that is given with "first" and "second"!

Second, who in the world do you think wrote the New Testament scriptures. The writer were prophets and predicted in Isaiah 8:16-18 which verse 18 is directly quoted in Hebrews 2:3-12.

Not all the apostles provided scripture and not all the prophets that provided NT scripture were apostles but all who provided scripture were prophets - "secondarily prophets"

There is no mental gymnastics where you can make "second" occur before "first" - Your position is simply wrong!

Of course the Apostles are first. They were to be guided into ALL Truth.
No one denies there were NT. Prophets.

To suggest the OT. prophets are not part of the NT. Church foundation is an error.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

King James Version (KJV)
They spoke of the person and work Of jesus...His Church and his mission.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Half of what the Apostles did was open up many such portions and describe their fulfillment...I believe a lack of understanding of the hebrews 12 passage causes the relationship and blending of the OT prophets with the Nt ones to fail.... and create a division that is not intended to exist.

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course the Apostles are first. They were to be guided into ALL Truth.
No one denies there were NT. Prophets.

To suggest the OT. prophets are not part of the NT. Church foundation is an error.

That is completely absurd, if that were true it would be "first prophets, secondarily Apostles" as that is precisely the order you are arguing for. How can you take the explicit order and reverse it other than pure ecclesiastical bias?????

Second, you are completing ignoring what the text says. It says "SET IN the church"!!!!! The Apostles was the first GIFT set in the church whereas propehts were SET IN the church seconardily. This is further supported by Ephesians 4:11 that apostles were the first gifted men set in the church.

This text is not speaking of the first who preached the gospel because if that were the case it could not say "first apostles" as your texts prove the apostles were not the "first" to preach the gospel.

Your theory is simply false and you are forced to pervert the text to support it. "SET IN the church" is what the text says and there is no possible mental gymnastics you can do to deny that this "foundation" has to do with those SET IN the church.

 

[Iconoclast]

Biblicist said;
[Your response hinged on making the baptism in the Spirit a completed act for all the elect on Pentecost but that failed because (1) Not only do all theologians who interpret the baptism in the Spirit as being removed from "in Adam" and placed "in Christ" demand it is an INDIVIDUAL action that is repeated at the time of individual salvation (2) but the very nature of that kind of definition must be individualized at the point of time when each person is saved because prior to that exact point in time they are not "in Christ" but still only "in Adam." So it can't be compared to the action of the cross which must be a non-repeatable action, but the very application as defined by your camp demands it must be an individualized action at the point of the salvation of each individual and yet the Biblical baptism in the Spirit is impossible to apply in that manner.]

In the same way as the cross was a one time event,and saved all the elect......those before the cross, those after the cross....
In the same way-
Spirit Baptism places all the elect into the ONE ETERNAL BODY of Christ. Ot saints were regenerated by the Same Spirit.
They were In union with Christ soteriologically ,agreed.
They could not yet be in the eternal body of Christ until Pentecost however as we are told that Spirit Baptism is the vehicle that gets that done....
Jesus spoke to Peter of a yet future time......I will build my Church...He did not say...I have already began building my Church with John the Baptist. It is true that he had gathered people unto Himself, but everything happened in it's time.
I believe he offers the Kingdom as in MT.21....as Kind david took the stronghold of Zion.....King Jesus takes the earthly Zion and Jerusalem, and When he ascends after tearing the veil;
39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Jerusalem was still called "the Holy City" here, but when Jesus finishes the sacrifice and ascends to the heavenly Throne, the Holy place and the Holy City has changed in fulfillment of all the OT prophecies concerning Zion and Jerusalem. as in Isa 2, and Joel ,etc

I do not think scripture keeps the elect scattered....I believe we will meet Noah, Daniel and Job.....on equal footing.

I am starting to read through your book.
1]I want to read through it first...see what you say.

2]Consider what you say, the scriptures you offer

3]See what I can learn from it

4]Compare it to what I have already seen from redemptive History

5]Offer correction or at least show what I see as unproven or inconsistent.

As time permits...I would open a new thread on it.

Lol ....from what i have read so far, I now realize that I have an online acquaintance who is a Landmarker...so now I understand in the providence of God why I am searching this out...[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

That is completely absurd, if that were true it would be "first prophets, secondarily Apostles" as that is precisely the order you are arguing for. How can you take the explicit order and reverse it other than pure ecclesiastical bias?????

First...it is not absurd.....Jesus has began His Messianic Kingdom..
Ot saints looked forward to it. The Apostles were chosen to be guided INTO ALL TRUTH. That would include all that came before it, and how to rightly put the pieces of the puzzle together.

The very fact that all of those Ot prophecies looking forward to the time of Christ were ....NOT understood...shows the necessity of the primacy of the Apostles In the construction of the NT.Church.

jn14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
jn15;
6 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

jn16;
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Your theory is simply false and you are forced to pervert the text to support it. "SET IN the church" is what the text says and there is no possible mental gymnastics you can do to deny that this "foundation" has to do with those SET IN the church.

All scripture is given for us B. The Apostolic foundation passed on to us contains dozens of OT . prophecies that the Spirit opened up to the Apostles, for us.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist,


First...it is not absurd.....Jesus has began His Messianic Kingdom..
Ot saints looked forward to it. The Apostles were chosen to be guided INTO ALL TRUTH. That would include all that came before it, and how to rightly put the pieces of the puzzle together.

The very fact that all of those Ot prophecies looking forward to the time of Christ were ....NOT understood...shows the necessity of the primacy of the Apostles In the construction of the NT.Church.

jn14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
jn15;
6 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

jn16;
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.




All scripture is given for us B. The Apostolic foundation passed on to us contains dozens of OT . prophecies that the Spirit opened up to the Apostles, for us.

The text does not say "first to preach the gospel" or "first to provide scriptures" or "first to predict the coming of Christ" but first to be "SET IN THE CHURCH." All your evidences and arguments have nothing to do with what the text actually says.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist,


First...it is not absurd.....Jesus has began His Messianic Kingdom..
Ot saints looked forward to it. The Apostles were chosen to be guided INTO ALL TRUTH. That would include all that came before it, and how to rightly put the pieces of the puzzle together.

The very fact that all of those Ot prophecies looking forward to the time of Christ were ....NOT understood...shows the necessity of the primacy of the Apostles In the construction of the NT.Church.

jn14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
jn15;
6 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

jn16;
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.




All scripture is given for us B. The Apostolic foundation passed on to us contains dozens of OT . prophecies that the Spirit opened up to the Apostles, for us.

Your arguments are wrong for at least several reasons.

1. The nature of the problem "in Adam" which is spiritual separation/denies that it can be delayed until after their own physical death. Your view leaves in them in spiritual separation from God, thus "in the flesh" WITHOUT life, light, love or holiness. Thus incapable of loving God, knowing God, understanding spiritual things, without ability to do righteousness as they are "in the flesh" thus still "in Adam."

2. The union is explicity said to be accomplished by the creative act of God called quickening not by any baptism of any kind - Eph. 2:10. Plus basic scriptural principles repudiate it is by baptism as to be "in the flesh" is due to being BORN of the flesh, just as being "in the Spirit' is due to being BORN of the Spirit.

3. If you are going to make the cross the argument as the basis for denying this application of salvation to pre-cross saints, then you cannot pick and choose, if one aspect of redemption cannot be applied because the cross has not occurred then ALL aspects of redemption cannot be applied on the very same line of reasoning. However, Abraham proves your line of reasoning is false. Pentecostal indwelling is of the institutional house of God composed of living stones "built up together" or brought into an assembly by profession of faith and WATER baptism.

 

[The Biblicist]

In the same way as the cross was a one time event,and saved all the elect......those before the cross, those after the cross....
In the same way-
Spirit Baptism places all the elect into the ONE ETERNAL BODY of Christ. Ot saints were regenerated by the Same Spirit.
They were In union with Christ soteriologically ,agreed.
They could not yet be in the eternal body of Christ until Pentecost however as we are told that Spirit Baptism is the vehicle that gets that done....
Jesus spoke to Peter of a yet future time......I will build my Church...He did not say...I have already began building my Church with John the Baptist. It is true that he had gathered people unto Himself, but everything happened in it's time..

You say you deny that you believe in a universal invisible church but here is more proof that you do. Your "ONE ETERNAL BODY" consisting of all the elect is not visible, it is not local as part is in heaven, part on earth, part not born. So don't say I am falsely accusing you of something you don't believe. Your whole argument is completely dependent upon that theory.

 

[Iconoclast]

You say you deny that you believe in a universal invisible church but here is more proof that you do. Your "ONE ETERNAL BODY" consisting of all the elect is not visible, it is not local as part is in heaven, part on earth, part not born. So don't say I am falsely accusing you of something you don't believe. Your whole argument is completely dependent upon that theory.

It is not completed until the last day....on the last day there will be one assembled body.....very visible.
On earth now...
There are local visible assemblies.
You do not answer for those in the intermediate state.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is not completed until the last day....on the last day there will be one assembled body.....very visible.
On earth now...
There are local visible assemblies.
You do not answer for those in the intermediate state.

Then according to your theory how could all the Old Testament saints ON PENTECOST be added to that body then, or be baptized in the Spirit on that day if that body does not exist until the last day?

 

[The Biblicist]

To "SET IN" the church means that apostles as a gift (text is dealing with gifts) was the first gift to be PLACED IN (Gr. aorist middle indicative of tithimi) the church. The "prophet" is also a gift but it was PLACED IN the church after the gift of apostles were PLACED IN the church. This denies that any gifts previous to the Apostles were PLACED IN the church. Thus, the church with references to gifts cannot include Old Testament Prophets which was a gift of God to Old Testament people. This precise order is again specified in Ephesians 4:11 where again apostles precede prophets.

Your view of the baptism of the Spirit is not only impossible but repudiates the essentials of Biblical salvation and is therefore opposed to the gospel of Christ. Spiritual union is the only possible solution to spiritual separation which had its origin in the Garden of Eden and is the universal problem for all who are "in Adam" and is the essence of what it means to be "in the flesh." That condition is a spiritual state that is separated from God, thus as Paul says "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18), a state in love with darkness that will not come to the light, as God is the source of light (Jn. 3:19-20), a state that is at enmity with God and not subject or in submission to the will of God (Rom.8:7) and therefore a spiritual state that "cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8) and all who are in such a state are "NONE OF HIS" - Rom.8:9.

To be "in the flesh" is directly due to being BORN of the flesh, just as to be "in the Spirit" is directly due to being BORN of the Spirit, neither of which have anything to do with any kind of baptism or any kind of church membership as your church salvation doctrine demands.

The baptism in the Spirit is the common ordinary usual method by which God administered to his public house of worship in the context of establishing a covenant ADMINISTRATION within the kingdom or professing people of God. The New Testament public "house of God" is an assembly of PHYSICAL BODIES (1 Cor. 6:15) corporately indwelt by the Spirit of God as a singular temple in a singular geographical location that not only where ALL its members can assemble together (Acts 2:1; 1 Cor. 11:17-19, etc.). On the day of Pentecost the ekklesia as a JEWISH institution was once for all immersed in the Spirit signifying to the Jewish people in Jerusalem that it had replaced the temple, and then repeated to authenticate it is inclusive of GENTILE members in Acts 10 never to be repeated again.

That is why WATER BAPTIZED members of his congregation were instructed to wait in a geographical location as the baptism in the Spirit was not a universal application but a localized application, not to all believer all over the land of Palestine or elsewhere but those assembled "in one place" - Acts 2:1

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed no earlier than 5pm Pacific.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then according to your theory how could all the Old Testament saints ON PENTECOST be added to that body then, or be baptized in the Spirit on that day if that body does not exist until the last day?

I am not sure of the logistics of it. John sees and describes saints in heaven before the last day.
They are assembled....but it cannot be the full body until the last day.
I am not worried about them.....I am sure they are in good hands.
The High Priest Mediator and surety had to go beyond the veil first...psa68,eph4.....
B. I cannot totally grasp the transfiguration . ..but I know it happened, I know they spoke of the redemption to be accomplished....The Spirit does what He will.