1 Corinthians 12-14

[Naomi]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Naomi~"If you truly believe that "that which" refers to Christ (altho' I, myself, never call Him a "that which"), then what would be the need of "faith & hope"? "That which is perfect" is the completed Word of God. The written Word is now complete and people who claim to speak in tongues or have the other Apostle-gifts, are saying that God is still revealing through them. You are denying the complete and final authority of the written Word of God.

That which is come is refering to the return of Jesus.

Also, this 'private prayer' stuff-God don't need that, does He? What possible benefit does it give you? Just curious...

14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Granny, I agree with you on everything except that I just don't see Biblically how you can prove that the "perfect" is the Bible. I think a more logical interprtation is that if Adam and Eve lost "perfection" that the that which is perfect would be the restoration of what Adam and Eve lost and that is obviously when the curse is lifted and we begin the 1000 year reign on earth. That to me just makes better sense and seems to fit the whole of scripture better. Thanks again for all your great posts

In Christ,
Brian

Didn't Jesus become a curse for us when He was crucified? Because of what He did on the cross, aren't we are able to enter into the Holy of Holies, by the Blood of the Lamb?

Naomi

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by DHK:
Context is very important when considering what "that which is perfect" means. The word "that" is in the neuter gender which discounts Christ or his coming, both of which would be referred to with a masculine pronoun. The context is referring to revelatory gifts and nothing else. It is referring to the revelation of God. The church received revelation from God at that time from speaking in tongues and the interpretation thereof, through prophecies, through revelatory knowledge. There would come a time when the means of these revelations would cease, and God would give us a completed revelation, a revelation that we would reveal Himself to all mankind. That is the word of God.


DHK

With all due respect DHK, Can you offer a scriptural reference? Thanks.
Naomi

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Hi Ron, Hope you are well!!

Ron, how about some "meat" from you on the subject instead of the "hash" you just slung

--Brian

Hi, Brian. Naomi covered it pretty well early in the thread.

"Now we know that love never fails. When we get to heaven, we will no longer be in need of spiritual gifts. The perfect will come. The gifts will no longer be needed, but love will be forever.
We prophesy in part, we know in part. We see through a glass dimly. Soon we will be face to face."

1Corinthians 13 is about love. God's infinite and perfect love: not revelation, not the Bible.

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by The Briguy:


why would God want us to speak to him and have no clue what we are saying? I have no clue why some folks would think the God who can read our thoughts would need for us to speak to him in a "private" language, so private that even the speaker doesn't understand Strange indeed.

In Christ,
Brian

14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

As I've posted elsewhere & it was not commented on that I remember-is "the perfect law of liberty" found in James 1:25(KJV), NOT talking about the Bible? [I had written those notes down a long time ago & need to correct it, if it's not]. If it IS talking about the "perfect" Bible, then wouldn't this be a scripture to identify [when that which is "perfect" is come]? I don't know how else to say what it is I'm asking.

Also, in 14:2, I see that as meaning if someone from a foreign country stood up in my little assembly(all English-speaking) & started speaking in his native tongue, no one would be able to understand him except God.

[ July 09, 2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Naomi:
That which is come is refering to the return of Jesus.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm so glad to see that someone sees that "that which is perfect" is talking about the end of the Gentile dispensation, which happens with the translation of the saints of God. The *RETURN* of the Lord for His church. Also, I might say that this is when the "gifts of the Spirit" will cease, not before!

Naomi, thanks so much for your post.

MEE

 

[Naomi]

1 Cointhians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Following along in our study....Chapter 14 begins by Paul telling the church to desire spiritual gifts. He seems to be explaining to the church the proper role for the use of tongues. Because if we speak in an unknown tongue in a church service, and there be no interpretation for it, it will not edify th echurch. ( I understand this to mean that perhaps some people were trying to appear more spiritual with the use of this gift, but Paul is admonishing them to use it in the manner that will be more beneficial)
If you are speaking in tongues for prayer purposes, or if you are led of the Holy Spirit to speak out in a tongue, the Holy Spirit will give another person the interpretation for it.

14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Once again, Paul seems to be encouraging use to speak with tongues....but in the church service, we should prophesy, because it will edify the body.
I think pastors and teachers use prophetic gifts as they are teaching. How many pastors have you heard say that they felt "led" to teach on a subject, yet they did not know why? Just because they did not say, "Thus saith the Lord...." Does not mean they were not speaking prophetically to the church. Sometimes we have made it into such a "show", that I am not surprised that people are turned off to the "gifts" operating in today's churches.

Just my lil ole opinion

I have to sign off...but I will continue .....
Please feel free to comment on the scriptures I posted.
Also, may we please use the scriptures posted, so we may study this in order. Believe me...I am totally A.D.D. and if we go off in a tangent, I will get lost!

Thanks for all your input....May Iron Sharpen Iron!

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by MEE:

Originally posted by Naomi:
That which is come is refering to the return of Jesus.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm so glad to see that someone sees that "that which is perfect" is talking about the end of the Gentile dispensation, which happens with the translation of the saints of God. The *RETURN* of the Lord for His church. Also, I might say that this is when the "gifts of the Spirit" will cease, not before!

Naomi, thanks so much for your post.

MEE

My pleasure! I love really studying the word, precept upon precept! Then we can understand what it is saying. What really messes us up, is when we bring in all the various commentaries. I know that some are very good, but I love getting back to basics!
God Bless Mee!

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:

Also, in 14:2, I see that as meaning if someone from a foreign country stood up in my little assembly(all English-speaking) & started speaking in his native tongue, no one would be able to understand him except God.

Unless one knew the language. That would negate the, "no man" theory...

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Naomi:
DHK stated:
Diversities of tongues. Those endowed with the power of speaking various languages." (Albert Barnes)

When 1Cor.12:28 mentions "diversities of tongues," it is simply speaking of
"kinds of languages." There are many different languages in this world. Some had the gift of speaking in different kinds of languages--real languages.

DHK, I am trying to stick to scripture references as mush as possible. Could you define in the book of Corinthians that it was a specific language. Thanks!

I answered your question from Scripture. 1Cor.12:28 is the Scripture itself. "Diversities of tongues" means many kinds of languages. This is not a difficult concept. However, let's look at other Scripture:

Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
---They spoke with "other tongues" (different languages). In Jerusalem there devout men out of every nation. When these men heard the disciples speaking these many different languages they were amazed because each man heard them speak in his own "language."

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
---They questioned each other how they were able to hear their own mother tongue (language) wherein they were born. They knew that these disciples were Galileans.
Verses 9-11 list some 11 different languages or nations represented there.

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
--Again the fact is referred to that "we hear them speak in our tongues (our languages) the wonderful works of God.
Tongues and languages are used interchangeably throughout this chapter. There is no such thing as a "heavenly" language, except for that which Paul described in 2Cor.12, and was not allowed to utter, and that which we will actually speak when we do get to Heaven, which is unknown on earth. Speaking in tongues is speaking another language, unknown to the person speaking it, but known to someone else.
DHK

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Naomi~"I'm sorry, but something doesn't seem right here; for one thing I do not understand anything you've "explained"...so I think I'll just sit this one out---for now.

[ July 09, 2002, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Naomi:
If no man understands it, how can it be a earthly language?

No man understood it because they were not using an interpreter for which they were rebuked.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Naomi:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Context is very important when considering what "that which is perfect" means. The word "that" is in the neuter gender which discounts Christ or his coming, both of which would be referred to with a masculine pronoun. The context is referring to revelatory gifts and nothing else. It is referring to the revelation of God. The church received revelation from God at that time from speaking in tongues and the interpretation thereof, through prophecies, through revelatory knowledge. There would come a time when the means of these revelations would cease, and God would give us a completed revelation, a revelation that we would reveal Himself to all mankind. That is the word of God.


DHK

With all due respect DHK, Can you offer a scriptural reference? Thanks.
Naomi</font>[/QUOTE]1Cor.13:8-10
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Naomi:
If you are speaking in tongues for prayer purposes, or if you are led of the Holy Spirit to speak out in a tongue, the Holy Spirit will give another person the interpretation for it.

Where does it teach that speaking in tongues is for prayer purposes? It doesn't. Neither does it say that the Holy Spirit will give another person for interpretation. What it does say is that if you don't have an interpreter, then sit down, keep quiet, shut up, don't speak, don't even try to speak in tongues. Paul made it very clear.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

As for the women they were not permitted to speak in tongues at all.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
DHK

[ July 09, 2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Briguy]

Hi N, Thanks for the topic, it seems to be going well.

""1 Cointhians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.""

N, I think you are missing one crucial point here. This is written in the negative. It is a open rebuke of the practices of the church of Corinth. When Paul wrote the words above he was saying those were bad things. Self edification and blabbing "mysteries" are not good things. Paul mentions the good thing, "Love" amongst the bad. Jesus outlined prayer himself and never mentioned any private language, right? If you miss the fact that Paul is "spanking" the church at Corinth you will never understand what Paul is saying here.

John Mc., said in a book I read that the "God" in that verse in greek would be better interpreted "a god". If read like that it really brings to light what Paul was saying.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

KJV - ""13:8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
13:9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
13:10: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
13:11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13:13: And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.""

DHK, On the "that which is perfect" issue, I just see the Kingdom age and the end of the "curse as the more complete explanation. We have a curious statement here that cannot be ignored. "But then face to face" When is the face to face? When that which is perfect comes. The kingdom age or the lifting of the curse time, however you want to say it takes this into account, The Bible theory does not. Overall as I read and re-read the passage I see where you are coming from but I am much more comfortable with my side of this one. Also, for you to be right then Knowledge and prophecy must be gone ( I know you believe that) but I don't so in that sense for me my theory is supported by the fact that I believe there are still gifts of proclaiming God's word and better understanding of God's word. (not in regards to revelation).

For those still deciding in their own minds just keep studying and praying about it. How I wish we were of one accord on this but some day we won't see through that glass, darkly, and will know him as he really is.

In Christian love,
Brian

 

[GrannyGumbo]

13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I know, I know...what can I say, except it's hard to sit still "Brian, I always thought this meant that back then, they didn't have ALL of God's Word, like we do today...(glass darkly, know in part). Now we DO have His completed and perfect Word & ya know what? Everytime I open that blessed Old Book-- BAM! there I am...I see "myself" (face to face), I know what I must do to change, grow, learn, what I am, who I am, what I should be, could be, etc. because it's all in there(know as I am known). This is some more of that homegrown-cornpone, but that's how I understand it.

 

[Briguy]

Granny, What you say is interesting and insightful but something is off about it. Face to face would be a strange way of saying that we are reflecting on ourself. Think about it, if you were writing about seeing someone for the first time you would say "i can't wait to see him face to face. I really think that Paul would have made the reflective thing clear had he meant that. It is a pretty big stretch coming to that conclusion based on the words we have to work with. Also, do you believe the gifts of prohecy and knowledge are gone? because if the Bible is, that which is perfect, then prophecy and knowledge (gifts that is) are gone as well, that is clear in the text. We all sometimes have a belief first and try to make verses say what we want, we all do that and anyone that says they never do is not honest. Well, that is it for now. Thanks again for your kindness and great attitude, even in the midst of something we do not agee on.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by DHK:


As for the women they were not permitted to speak in tongues at all.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
DHK

Thanks for everyones contribution here

Just a few comments would be:
To address this verse in context, it does not mean women should not speak in church, because if that were the case, there would be no women as Sunday School Teacher's or in the Church Choir. Also in 1 Cointhians 11, it states: 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Women should be under the authority of her husband, or Pastor, as they are submissive to the Lord.