1 Corinthians 12-14

[Naomi]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Hi N, Thanks for the topic, it seems to be going well.

""1 Cointhians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.""

N, I think you are missing one crucial point here. This is written in the negative. It is a open rebuke of the practices of the church of Corinth. When Paul wrote the words above he was saying those were bad things. Self edification and blabbing "mysteries" are not good things. Paul mentions the good thing, "Love" amongst the bad. Jesus outlined prayer himself and never mentioned any private language, right? If you miss the fact that Paul is "spanking" the church at Corinth you will never understand what Paul is saying here.

John Mc., said in a book I read that the "God" in that verse in greek would be better interpreted "a god". If read like that it really brings to light what Paul was saying.

In Christ,
Brian

Thank you Brian for your Christ-like attitude in this thread . I appreciate your insight in this.

I am continuing this study in 1 Corinthians 14, then I will comment on the "spanking" part. I totally agree that it was a "spanking!" Paul was giving to the church in Corinth. I think it can also apply to the church of 2002 .

Thanks again!
Naomi

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Naomi:

Just a few comments would be:
To address this verse in context, it does not mean women should not speak in church, because if that were the case, there would be no women as Sunday School Teacher's or in the Church Choir. Also in 1 Cointhians 11, it states: 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Women should be under the authority of her husband, or Pastor, as they are submissive to the Lord.

1. It says elsewhere that women are never to have authority over a man. Even in prophecy, in the church she could not do that in the presence of men, for she would be teaching men, a clear contradiction of Scripture. Thus the prophecy must mean in the presence of other women, which would also fit with the customs of the time.

2. It says "pray" and "prophecy;" it does not say speak in tongues, which is the context of the passage. A woman was not permitted to speak in tongues in the church. She was forbidden to do so. Scripture makes that much clear.
DHK

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Hey, again~Brian, I don't ALWAYS have a great attitude nor am I always kind, but thanks for thinking so!
I was really naive that I was never concerned by those who preached another gospel until it touched my family and now I could kick myself for never learning more about it; so I do tend to lose my cool from time to time. Sorry.

I think back then, the apostles were given supernatural gifts which ended when they died. I do not know how else to explain what I mean other than if one of them touched someone, they were healed. If one foretold something it happened. I think God had to give that BECAUSE they did not have what we do today-His Word. They needed all that "proof" to prove Who God was, because they didn't have the "proof" we have today. They had some, but not all. We have the whole enchilada!
Just this morning, Brian, I opened my KJBible, & read something & thought, "I have come face to face with myself"!

 

[Naomi]

Coninuing with the study...

14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret

I interpret this to mean that Paul is laying a foundation for the proper use of tongues in the church service. It appears to me, that the church services were turning into mayhem services with no order. Paul came to bring order to the services. ( this is what I am getting out of the scriptures, please feel free to add your own insight

)

14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Paul is saying, you can sing with the spirit (tongues) you can pray with understanding (english, or whatever language you understand, you can sing with the spirit or with understanding..and this all all good, except in the church service, do not do this. Because if a man who is unlearned (unbeliever) comes in, he will think your crazy! Paul said in 14:17, You are giving thanks very well, but the other is not edified.

How do we know he is saying this in the context of what I just stated?

Here'e the answer....may we continue:

14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Paul said, I thank my God I speak in tongues more than ye all...

Now if he were just rebuking the church for speaking in tongues, he would not have said this.
He said, he would rather speak 5 words with understanding, so he could teach others...

More later....

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by DHK:

1. It says elsewhere that women are never to have authority over a man. Even in prophecy, in the church she could not do that in the presence of men, for she would be teaching men, a clear contradiction of Scripture. Thus the prophecy must mean in the presence of other women, which would also fit with the customs of the time.

2. It says "pray" and "prophecy;" it does not say speak in tongues, which is the context of the passage. A woman was not permitted to speak in tongues in the church. She was forbidden to do so. Scripture makes that much clear.
DHK

Perhaps it would fit the custom of the times.... However; Prophecy is coming from the Holy Spirit that dwells within us, so it would not be male nor female.
A woman is forbidden to teach? Wow! Ask my husband
if he has learned anything from me! LOL!
Yet, I am very much under his authority. I realize that. The scriptures tell us to submit one to another. My husband has no problem submitting to me when he asks my advice on something, and visa/versa! I guess I submit to him out of Love, not out of Duty. We have been married 21 years. So, I guess we are doing something right. .
God Bless!

 

[MEE]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DHK:

As for the women they were not permitted to speak in tongues at all.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
DHK

Hmmm...DHK, if women weren't permitted to speak
in tongues at all, why do you suppose that that they spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost? Acts 1:14) These all continued with
one accord in prayer and supplication, with the
women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

The women were in the upper room, among the 120, when the Holy Ghost was poured out for the first time. They spoke in tongues! Why weren't the
other women allowed to speak in tongues? Or, better than that, doesn't a woman have the right to have the baptism of the Holy Ghost today?

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Naomi:

Perhaps it would fit the custom of the times.... However; Prophecy is coming from the Holy Spirit that dwells within us, so it would not be male nor female.
A woman is forbidden to teach? Wow! Ask my husband
if he has learned anything from me! LOL!

1Tim.2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
--I didn't write the Bible. God did. If you have a problem with it; speak to Him. His instructions are pretty clear. "I do not allow a woman to teach a man." How plain can it be.
Your husband may learn from you, and I trust he does (at home), you are one flesh. You are supposed to learn from one another. Paul is not talking of the home; he is speaking of the local church. And even in the home--God has put the man as the head of the household. But in any case, women are not permitted to speak in tongues, are not permitted to have authority over a man, are not permitted to teach a man---all in the context of a local church. God teaches that. It is in the Bible.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:
quote:The women were in the upper room, among the 120, when the Holy Ghost was poured out for the first time. They spoke in tongues! Why weren't the
other women allowed to speak in tongues? Or, better than that, doesn't a woman have the right to have the baptism of the Holy Ghost today?
MEE

See my above post MEE. This only goes to show how far astray your false doctrine has gone. The church did not start until Pentecost had come. The instructions were to the local church. The occurence at Pentecost was a one time event in history, never to be repeated again. Take your doctrine from the epistles MEE. Why do you fail to do that? You base your doctrine not on Scripture, but on experience and verses pulled out of context from the Book of Acts. Prove your doctrine to me from the epistles such as the book of Romans, or in this case the Pastoral epistles.
DHK

 

[MEE]

posted July 10, 2002 08:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apostolic Doctine - Speaking in Tongues
... History also proves that speaking in tongues was the evidence of the Holy Spirit
baptism in the early church, and has not ceased to be a Biblical experience ...
www.altupc.com/articles/tongues1.htm - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

For all of those who missed this link. Hope it sheds some light on the subject of speaking in tongues.

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Naomi:
I interpret this to mean that Paul is laying a foundation for the proper use of tongues in the church service. It appears to me, that the church services were turning into mayhem services with no order. Paul came to bring order to the services. ( this is what I am getting out of the scriptures, please feel free to add your own insight

Naomi, you have taken most of these Scriptures and made them mean something that they were not intended to mean. In verses 7 to 13, you mostly ignore, except to make a very generalized statement that God is speaking about order in the church. Look at what God is really talking about:

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
---Even inanimate objects as musical instrument give distinct sounds which cannot be confused one with another. With tongues there is nothing but confusion. Don't use tongues. It causes confusion. In an orchestra every instrument (pipe or flute, harp, etc.) has a distinct sound. All put together they produce beautiful music which we can understand. If they are all out of tune or out of sync with each other, they just produce chaos, and no one can understand. So it is with tongues. You don't have interpreters, there is no edification or understanding, just confusion and chaos. Avoid speaking in tongues. That was his message in verse 7.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
---The trumpet was an important instrument. It sounded the troupes together. It told them to advance, to retreat. It played the reveille. It told them when to awake, when meal time was. It had a "certain" sound for each activity. I am not so musically talented. You would NOT want me to be the trumpeter or bugler in your army. What would happen? If I did it, your army would not know whether to advance or retreat, go to bed or arise, or what to do. There would be just utter confusion. A trumpet must give a certain sound, for if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself for battle? The trumpet needs to be understood. Tongues are not understood. They are not profitable. They do not edify. Avoid them. Do not speak in tongues. That was Paul's message here.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
--As if the two illustrations were not enough, he applies them directly. "So Likewise," he says. Unless you speak with your own tongue (that organ you possess) words that one can easily understand, what profit is it?? There is no profit in speaking in a language that no one can understand. Don' do it. It is just like speaking in the air (Is that the origin of the word "airhead?). Speak to the wind. Might as well. No one can understand you anyway if you speak in tongues. Don't do it.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
---There are many kinds of voices. He is referring again to languages. They all have their significance in this world. They are all important.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
---But if I don't know what language he is speaking, and I speak in another language that he does not understand, I will seem as a barbarian, and vice-versa. There won't be any meaningful communication. Don't speak in tongues--there is no understanding in tongues. Over and over again he tells the Corinthians that they ought not to be seeking this gift, but staying away from it. It is not profitable for them.
More later.
DHK

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Hmmm...DHK, if women weren't permitted to speak
in tongues at all, why do you suppose that that they spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost? Acts 1:14) These all continued with
one accord in prayer and supplication, with the
women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.The women were in the upper room, among the 120, when the Holy Ghost was poured out for the first time. They spoke in tongues! [MEE]

MEE~Unlike some Baptists, I personally believe that the church began BEFORE the day of Pentecost; because prior to that day, there was already a body of baptized believers covenanted together to carry out the commands of Jesus Christ & unto them, those 3,000 non-tongue-talking souls were "ADDED".

I think I've mentioned to you before that I don't believe Mary spoke in tongues. I don't think God would say one thing about women & do another. I may be wrong, but I don't think women were even allowed to mix or associate with men in the Jewish temple or even in the synagogue. I think Acts 1:26 tells who the "they" are in Acts 2:1. In Acts 2:43b, these things are done through the Apostles only-nothing is said about the 120 or the new converts speaking in languages. I think all of Acts 2 (look at v.14) is the 12 only. If the 120 were doing signs & wonders, why did the crowd just address the 12?(v.13). Why does v.5 say devout men? v.6 says every man; so does v.8, & v.22 says ye men, v.45-men/every man... "oh, well, what do I know anyhow?"

[ July 10, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[DHK]

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
---The Corinthian church had all the gifts. Paul told them that they come behind in no gift. But he specifically says here to seek to EDIFY the church. Tongues did not do that. Don't speak in tongues because they don't edify; no one understands them; they are not profitable. Rather seek prophecy; it will edify, and build up the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
This verse is connected to verse 12 by means of the word "wherefore." Thus the subject is edification and understanding, as it is throughout the whole chapter. If you are going to speak in another language you had better pray big time that you are also given the gift of interpretation at the same time. Because if you are not given it, I am just going to tell (a few verses later) to sit down and shut up!! In this case the speaker had to be able to speak in another language than his own, and then be able to interpret it.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
--A misunderstood verse indeed. Let's look at it this way: "If I pray in another language that I do not understand, my spirit may also pray (I can understand my spirit praying), but my understanding (of the other language) is unfruitful. I have been to a service where people spoke in tongues. My understanding of their gibberish was completely fruitless and futile. It was mayhem and confusion. I have also been on the mission field in a meeting where everyone but me spoke another language. It was a real language, just not mine (English). My understanding of the service (both prayer and message) was fruitless). But, I could still pray in my spirit and understand in my spirit. My spirit prays. But my understanding (of the other language) is unfruitful. Therefore, Paul says, Don't speak in tongues. It is not profitable. It does not edify. It does not bring understanding.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
What is it then? What is the best thing to do? What shall I do. I will pray with my spirit, and I will pray with understanding. I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with understanding. Note the emphasis on understanding all throughout. Everything that Paul does he does with understanding. He wants the church to be built up, edified. He wants them to understand. Speaking in tongues is fruitless; it brings no understanding.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
---Basically what Paul has just done in the last three verses is use three illustrations to prove the fruitlessness of speaking in tongues. He uses the illustration of public prayer (that done in a church service), public singing (context is church), and now giving thanks publicly for a meal. In all three cases if one was to do by the use of tongues or using another language, he would be very foolish, and would look very foolish. He would pray and given thanks, and the people would not know when to say "Amen." He said, You may have prayed very well, but what use or benefit is it if no one understands or is edified. Therefore, don't speak in tongues.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Why did he say that? Because these were carnal and immature Christians who were still seeking after a sign, just like Charismatics are today. It is a rebuke to them.

1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
---You completely twisted the meaning of this verse around. The terse rebuke in this verse is very plain. He would rather say: "Hello, my name is Paul." That is 5 words that people can understand than 10,000 words in an unknown language that people cannot understand. What is he saying here. 5 to 10,000. He is saying that speaking with understanding is 2000 times more important than speaking in tongues. 2000 times more important. 2000 per cent better. That makes tongues pretty insignificant doesn't it. Don't seek after tongues. Seek to edify people, to cause them to understand the Word. Tongues simply causes confusion and chaos, avoid them. Paul was telling them to avoid them in his day. Now the gift has ceased. How much more should we avoid that which now has a probable demonic source.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Thanks DHK, Great posts. I can't even think of anything to add.

Granny and MEE, DHK is right about Pentecost, it was a one time special event and should not be confused with the normal workings of the gathered assembly.

God Bless,
Brian

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Thanks DHK, Great posts. I can't even think of anything to add.

Granny and MEE, DHK is right about Pentecost, it was a one time special event and should not be confused with the normal workings of the gathered assembly.

God Bless,
Brian

Brian, could it be that you
can't add anything is because you only know what DHK tells everyone on this board? He "lords" this forum and you all follow after "what" you know not.

I read all of his posts and most of them I don't even bother to respond. They are pathetic, to say the least. Go ahead and follow what he has to
say, it will make you like him. God forbid! IMO, I think he is scared of what he says about the Spirit of God. When he says things like probable and possibly of a demonic nature, referring to speaking in tongues, this shows that he is not sure of what he is teaching.

He doesn't understand that there is a difference in receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, and the "gift of tongues," but then neither do most of you.

I have never heard of anyone that seeks for the Holy Ghost and receives it for the "first" time call the Spirit of God, "the gift of tongues."

MEE

[ July 11, 2002, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

[Briguy]

Hi MEE, Believe it or not DHK and I disagree on some aspects of spiritual gifts. We do agree all the way on "tongues" and that is what i was applauding him for. I think it is important that we all study God's word ourself first and learn from eachother second. I am always sorry to hear when Christians, usually really good well meaning people, disagree on certain issues because it shows the world that we are not truely of "one accord". The diversirties amoung those on the BB in regards to salvation alone amaze me. Many on this board would say I am not going to Heaven because I haven't been believer baptized. Some say i am OK as long as i believe now and was Baptized as an infant. Our differences will continue until we are with Jesus in eternity. The issue of Tongues will be done away with once and for all. Until then I must share what I see scripture saying and DHK will do the same. MEE you also share what you think is right. I really believe your theology is not sound, you I think feel that I just have not "arrived" yet. Either way keep studying God's word and leave the emotional part of your Christian walk for worshiping time and for showing compassion toward others and try to study God's word with logic and practicalness(? is that a word).

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

He doesn't understand that there is a difference in receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, and the "gift of tongues," but then neither do most of you.

The gift of tongues was the ability to speak in tongues, i.e. speak in foreign languages--which you cannot do. And it has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and never did. You amaze me MEE. You will take all your theology out of just one book of the Bible, the Book of Acts. You can't even demonstrate to me the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans. You might as well throw away the rest of the 65 books of the Bible because they are useless to you. All that is important to you is that one book, the Book of Acts. That is where you draw your theology from. Have you ever considered that when your theology from just one book is contrary to the rest of the 65 books of the Bible it just might be a little off--if not a whole lot off!!!!!!!!!!
DHK

 

[Naomi]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
try to study God's word with logic and practicalness(? is that a word).

In Christian Love,
Brian

Geetings Brian,
We need to be careful of leaning on our own understanding and logic because the word also says
in 1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

You also stated: I am always sorry to hear when Christians, usually really good well meaning people, disagree on certain issues because it shows the world that we are not truely of "one accord".

I think we can disagree, while still remaining in one accord. It is how we disagree. If people do not agree with me on doctrinal issues, yet, we agree with the Deity of Jesus Christ, and He died on the cross for our sins, was raised on the third day, is coming again, and we are saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves....You are indeed my sister or brother in the Lord!

It is only when we disagree, and use personal attacks that christians become carnal, and immature. Yet I would not call them an unbeliever.

Thanks for your input here
God Bless! Naomi

BTW...I have alot of relation in Kenosha!

 

[Naomi]

In conclusion of this study...

14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe

Now this statement is very interesting....

because if you compare it to this statement:

. 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Now, it seems Paul is contradicting himself. How can one say that tongues are a sign to them that are unbeliever's, and then say, if you are all speaking in tongues, and an unbeliever comes in, will he not think you are crazy?
It only stands to reason, that Paul, once again, is setting guidelines for the use of tongues, as well as prophecies.

He goes on to say:

14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

If everyone is prophesying, it would make more sense to an unbeliever, because he would see that everyone is being edified, and the unbeliever is convicted (thus, the secrets of his heart are made known, and he falls down on his face) repentance comes, and he is saved! This is in order, and Paul is exhorting the church to do things in order.

Paul then states:
14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

As, if..Why is it, that when you all come together everyone has a psalm, doctrine, interpretation etc.

If everyone is doing their own thing....who can be edified in the church service? There would be no order to it. It would be like two people trying to teach at the same time. There would be confusion. In the end Paul said, Let all things be done unto edifying.

Continued...

 

[Naomi]

14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

Once again, we see Paul giving instructions on the proper use of tongues and prophecies in the church service.

14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

We can see from this example also how disorderly these services must have been! Culturally, the women sat on one side of the church, whereas, the men sat on the other. The women would be disruptive if they had a question. Paul said they should wait til they got home to ask.

In conclusion of this chapter...

14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Once again....Covet to prophesy....(desire spiritual gifts) and forbid not to speak in tongues (allow it)
Lastly... Let all things be done decently and in order.

Paul was rebuking the church in Corinth for their disorderly conduct. People were using the gifts in order to appear spiritual. Paul was basically telling them to grow-up Never once did he say, not to use these gifts, rather to use them so that everyone can be edified.

I never look at christians to be more spiritual because they use the gifts. We should only consider a christian to be truly spiritual based upon the fruit they show. Knowledge can puff people up. The gifts can puff people up. Yet, the best gift is love (charity).

So many people discount the gifts operating today because they have seen such an emotional show, or because certain churches have went way off in their doctrine..not only in the gifts, but the Deity of Jesus (oneness Pentecostals) that people are closed minded to the gifts even being real. I understand that well meaning christians will argue about this and even Judge ones salvation for believing in the gifts. I have shared my beliefs of 1 Corinthians 12,13 and 14. You can agree or disagree with me. This does not hinder my fellowship with anyone. I do not think our experiences alone should lead us, but I also know that Jesus called us friends, and no longer servants. We should be able to experience Him in a much closer way than the Prophets who went before us. I say that because The Holy Spirit lives inside of us.

These our just my thoughts....Thank all of you who contributed here

God Bless,
Naomi

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
DHK, On the "that which is perfect" issue, I just see the Kingdom age and the end of the "curse as the more complete explanation. We have a curious statement here that cannot be ignored. "But then face to face" When is the face to face? When that which is perfect comes. The kingdom age or the lifting of the curse time, however you want to say it takes this into account, The Bible theory does not. Overall as I read and re-read the passage I see where you are coming from but I am much more comfortable with my side of this one. Also, for you to be right then Knowledge and prophecy must be gone ( I know you believe that) but I don't so in that sense for me my theory is supported by the fact that I believe there are still gifts of proclaiming God's word and better understanding of God's word. (not in regards to revelation).

Brian,
First, I went to great lengths to show that the context is clearly revelation. It speaks of the revelatory gifts: prophecy, tongues, revelatory knowledge. Paul sets them in contrast to semi-permanent gifts which will pass away at the Coming of Christ: Faith and hope. But it is love that will never pass away, it is the greatest of all. The temporary gifts are revelatory gifts which will pass when the revelation is complete, the perfected Word of God (Psalm 19:7; James 1:25).
Now let's look at the rest of the verses that I have not explained, as you requested.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

When I was a child (an immature Christian), I spake as a child (i.e., I spoke with other tongues).
I understood as a child--referring to the gift of prophecy.
I thought as a child--referring to the gift of knowledge or special revelation.

But when I became a man (more mature in the Lord), I put away childish things. That is, as I grew older in the Lord, I had no more need for these revelatory gifts. More and more of the Word was being written. These gifts were dying out. The people seeking these gifts were really immature Christians, as Paul refers to the Corinthians in 1Cor.3:1-3, that they were carnal and immature.

For now we see through a glass (mirror) darkly; but then face to face. That mirror will so shine that it will show my true face: thus face to face.
I know in part. I have only part of the revelation of the Word of God. Remember the context is revelation.
But then (when? When the Word of God will be completed), shall I be known even as also I am known. When I look into God's Word today, it exposes who I really am. In Paul's day it did that in part--he had the Old Testament. How much more does it do that today, with the inclusion of the New Testament to make up the completed Word of God. Look at the parallel Scripture in James 1:

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
---If you but hear the Word and do not obey the Word, James says you are like a man who gets up in the morning, looks in the mirror and then goes away, and can't remember whether or not he needed to shave or comb his hair, or wash the grime of his face. The experience of some teens (both boys and girls) can tell you that the longer you look in that mirror the more you'll find wrong with the face staring back at you. What's worse is the brighter the light, the more dirt you find. This is the picture that both Paul and James are drawing. We see through a mirror darkly. The light isn't very good. I don't get a good reflection. I can't see all the defects. But then, when the perfect is come, "whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." He looks into that bright shining Book, the completed Word of God, and he sees himself and all of his imperfections. He doesn't forget. He does something about it. He gets those blemishes and imperfections taken care of. This man shall be blessed in his deed. Paul never lived to see the completed Word of God, but he looked forward to the day that he could.
DHK

[ July 12, 2002, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]