1 Corinthians 12:3

[canadyjd]

1 Corinthians 12:3

“Wherefore I give to you to understand, no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Spirit”

Here the Apostle Paul begins a discussion of the gifts of God Holy Spirit by making two foundational points.

The first deals with the denial of Christ as the Messiah. The Jews, even to this day, are blinded to Jesus as Messiah in part because the OT statement that “cursed is the man that hangs on a tree” Deuteronomy 21:23. No man denying Jesus as Messiah because of the crucifixion is speaking from God.

The second point is what I would like to focus on in this thread.

Paul is very clearly stating God Holy Spirit is essential to every profession of faith resulting in salvation.

He is not saying a person cannot mouth the words, “Jesus is Lord” except by the Spirit. Jesus stated many would call Him “Lord” in the day of judgement and He would say that He never knew them.

Paul is stating God Holy Spirit is essential for each and every person to be saved to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation.

That very clearly means no person is ABLE that make a profession of faith unless they are empowered by God Holy Spirit to do so.

peace to you

 

[Van]

1 Corinthians 12:3

“Wherefore I give to you to understand, no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Spirit”

Here the Apostle Paul begins a discussion of the gifts of God Holy Spirit by making two foundational points.

The first deals with the denial of Christ as the Messiah. The Jews, even to this day, are blinded to Jesus as Messiah in part because the OT statement that “cursed is the man that hangs on a tree” Deuteronomy 21:23. No man denying Jesus as Messiah because of the crucifixion is speaking from God.

The second point is what I would like to focus on in this thread.

Paul is very clearly stating God Holy Spirit is essential to every profession of faith resulting in salvation.

He is not saying a person cannot mouth the words, “Jesus is Lord” except by the Spirit. Jesus stated many would call Him “Lord” in the day of judgement and He would say that He never knew them.

Paul is stating God Holy Spirit is essential for each and every person to be saved to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation.

That very clearly means no person is ABLE that make a profession of faith unless they are empowered by God Holy Spirit to do so.

peace to you

Sorry, but this claim is a complete and total fiction, using vague phraseology to deceive.

Of course everyone must be exposed to the gospel in order to believe in the gospel. Duh. The gospel as presented in the New Testament is the work product of the Holy Spirit as He inspired the authors.

But that is not what is being suggested! Nope, something more foul.

Of course no one can trust in the Lord unless first "drawn" by the Father. Duh We love Him because He first loved us.

But that is not what is being suggested! Nope, something more foul.

What is being taught is the false doctrine of "the gift of faith" whereby people are unable to receive the gospel and respond unless that are enabled by Irresistible grace. But did you see any of that the the OP. No, of course not because destructive heresies are introduced secretly.

But the proof that this claim is fiction is obvious, why does God credit the faith of some, and then bestow blessings. If the faith is given to the person, it would all ready be righteous as a gift from God. How could God choose someone for salvation through faith in the truth, if they had to be given faith before they could be chosen. It is nonsense from beginning to end.

 

[Silverhair]

1 Corinthians 12:3

“Wherefore I give to you to understand, no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Spirit”

Here the Apostle Paul begins a discussion of the gifts of God Holy Spirit by making two foundational points.

The first deals with the denial of Christ as the Messiah. The Jews, even to this day, are blinded to Jesus as Messiah in part because the OT statement that “cursed is the man that hangs on a tree” Deuteronomy 21:23. No man denying Jesus as Messiah because of the crucifixion is speaking from God.

The second point is what I would like to focus on in this thread.

Paul is very clearly stating God Holy Spirit is essential to every profession of faith resulting in salvation.

He is not saying a person cannot mouth the words, “Jesus is Lord” except by the Spirit. Jesus stated many would call Him “Lord” in the day of judgement and He would say that He never knew them.

Paul is stating God Holy Spirit is essential for each and every person to be saved to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation.

That very clearly means no person is ABLE that make a profession of faith unless they are empowered by God Holy Spirit to do so.

peace to you

Paul is writing to believers in Corinth as we can see from 1Corinthians 11:17-34 when he admonishes them for the way some have caused divisions within the body. He then continues to write of the gifts of the Spirit which they have received and contrasts the response of a pagan and a believer.

A citizen of the Roman Empire was required once a year to put a pinch of incense on the altar and say, “Caesar is Lord!” This was anathema to believers. No true Christian could call anyone but Christ “Lord,” so this was a definite test of whether or not a person was saved. Wiersbe's Expository Outlines

While anyone can mouth the words "Jesus is Lord" only those that have trusted in God for their salvation and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit will say it in truth.

So while you would like it to support your theological view it does not.

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry, but this claim is a complete and total fiction, using vague phraseology to deceive.

Of course everyone must be exposed to the gospel in order to believe in the gospel. Duh. The gospel as presented in the New Testament is the work product of the Holy Spirit as He inspired the authors.

But that is not what is being suggested! Nope, something more foul.

Of course no one can trust in the Lord unless first "drawn" by the Father. Duh We love Him because He first loved us.

But that is not what is being suggested! Nope, something more foul.

What is being taught is the false doctrine of "the gift of faith" whereby people are unable to receive the gospel and respond unless that are enabled by Irresistible grace. But did you see any of that the the OP. No, of course not because destructive heresies are introduced secretly.

But the proof that this claim is fiction is obvious, why does God credit the faith of some, and then bestow blessings. If the faith is given to the person, it would all ready be righteous as a gift from God. How could God choose someone for salvation through faith in the truth, if they had to be given faith before they could be chosen. It is nonsense from beginning to end.

Again, the anti-doctrines of grace crowd cannot address the truth clearly taught in God’s word, but rather, they can only attempt to deflect from the truth of God’s word with insults, accusations of falsehoods and heresies, and changing the subject. They then launch into the same old anti-doctrines of grave diatribe which twists all scripture to fit their bias.

Paul very clearly states, “no man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Spirit”. The gospel is not mentioned here. Being “drawn” is not mentioned here. “Crediting faith” is not mentioned here. “Faith” as a gift is not mentioned here. The only thing mentioned in this verse is the foundational principle that God Holy Spirit is essential and indispensable to each and every genuine profession of faith that leads to salvation.

Go away if you cannot address the topic of the OP without insults

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Paul is writing to believers in Corinth as we can see from 1Corinthians 11:17-34 when he admonishes them for the way some have caused divisions within the body. He then continues to write of the gifts of the Spirit which they have received and contrasts the response of a pagan and a believer.

A citizen of the Roman Empire was required once a year to put a pinch of incense on the altar and say, “Caesar is Lord!” This was anathema to believers. No true Christian could call anyone but Christ “Lord,” so this was a definite test of whether or not a person was saved. Wiersbe's Expository Outlines

While anyone can mouth the words "Jesus is Lord" only those that have trusted in God for their salvation and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit will say it in truth.

So while you would like it to support your theological view it does not.

And so we disagree

Thank you for not insulting me and accusing me of falsehood, deception and heresy.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

And so we disagree

Thank you for not insulting me and accusing me of falsehood, deception and heresy.

peace to you

Yes we do disagree but you have failed to recognize that the scriptural context also disagrees with your view. Pulling verses out of context is a sure way to fall into error.

I disagree with your theological view and will point out what I see as your errors in misunderstanding of the biblical text.

If memory serves I have not accused you of deliberate falsehood, deception or heresy.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes we do disagree but you have failed to recognize that the scriptural context also disagrees with your view.

And I disagree with your interpretation of the scriptural context.

Just because there are similar phrases in a pagan ritual, doesn’t dispel the truth of what is taught.

Paul was a very learned man, both within Judaism and secular society. He often used such in his writings that reveal Godly truth.

For example, the “unknown god” of Athens was used to engage the people.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

And I disagree with your interpretation of the scriptural context.

Just because there are similar phrases in a pagan ritual, doesn’t dispel the truth of what is taught.

Paul was a very learned man, both within Judaism and secular society. He often used such in his writings that reveal Godly truth.

For example, the “unknown god” of Athens was used to engage the people.

peace to you

I noted in your response to @Van in post #4 that you listed a number of things not mentioned in the text but then you turn around and claim something that was not found in the text and which the context does not support. "The only thing mentioned in this verse is the foundational principle that God Holy Spirit is essential and indispensable to each and every genuine profession of faith that leads to salvation "

Paul wrote to believers in Corinth to point out some errors in their church, see 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, regarding the Lord's supper and then we see the start on chapter 12 "Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters".

Your comment is actually correct up to the point where you add "that leads to salvation". There you are adding your theological view which the text does not support.

From your first post you are saying that the Holy Spirit must enable a person to believe but then we run headlong into the problem that you have made God responsible for all those that do not trust in Him and thus end up in hell. Your words "to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation." do not leave any wiggle room @canadyjd.

 

[Van]

Again, the anti-doctrines of grace crowd cannot address the truth clearly taught in God’s word, but rather, they can only attempt to deflect from the truth of God’s word with insults, accusations of falsehoods and heresies, and changing the subject. They then launch into the same old anti-doctrines of grave diatribe which twists all scripture to fit their bias.

Paul very clearly states, “no man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Spirit”. The gospel is not mentioned here. Being “drawn” is not mentioned here. “Crediting faith” is not mentioned here. “Faith” as a gift is not mentioned here. The only thing mentioned in this verse is the foundational principle that God Holy Spirit is essential and indispensable to each and every genuine profession of faith that leads to salvation.

Go away if you cannot address the topic of the OP without insults

peace to you

LOL, now this poster advocates taking a verse out of context.

Folks what does "by the Spirit" mean in 1 Corinthians 12:3? Does this mean the words are being formulated and spoken by the Supernatural power of the Holy Spirit? Nope. The actual idea is that no one speaking in accordance with truth held by the Holy Spirit says Jesus is accursed, and no one not speaking in accordance with the truth held by the Holy Spirit says Jesus is the Lord.

 

[canadyjd]

I noted in your response to @Van in post #4 that you listed a number of things not mentioned in the text but then you turn around and claim something that was not found in the text and which the context does not support. "The only thing mentioned in this verse is the foundational principle that God Holy Spirit is essential and indispensable to each and every genuine profession of faith that leads to salvation "

Paul wrote to believers in Corinth to point out some errors in their church, see 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, regarding the Lord's supper and then we see the start on chapter 12 "Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters".

Your comment is actually correct up to the point where you add "that leads to salvation". There you are adding your theological view which the text does not support.

From your first post you are saying that the Holy Spirit must enable a person to believe but then we run headlong into the problem that you have made God responsible for all those that do not trust in Him and thus end up in hell. Your words "to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation." do not leave any wiggle room @canadyjd.

Again, when Paul states “no man says Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit” there are two possibilities.

1. The words “Jesus is Lord” cannot be uttered by any person “but by the Spirit”. As I explained already, this cannot be the intended meaning. Jesus stated many will call Him Lord in the day of judgment and He will respond that He never knew them.

There is only one possible meaning.

2. That no man says Jesus is Lord “but by the Spirit” clearly teaches an essential, enabling work of God Holy Spirit that makes a genuine statement of faith that leads to salvation possible.

There can be no other meaning.

I explained this in the first post.

I understand you have attempted to dismiss the meaning by claiming Paul is referring to secular ritual where Roman citizens where required to say Caesar was lord.

I disagree and accept the words of scripture in the context they were written.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

LOL, now this poster advocates taking a verse out of context.

Folks what does "by the Spirit" mean in 1 Corinthians 12:3? Does this mean the words are being formulated and spoken by the Supernatural power of the Holy Spirit? Nope. The actual idea is that no one speaking in accordance with truth held by the Holy Spirit says Jesus is accursed, and no one not speaking in accordance with the truth held by the Holy Spirit says Jesus is the Lord.

LOLROTFLLOL slap my leg and holler at the moon.

Folks, notice how many words of confusion were added to twist the truth clearly taught to fit a bias against the doctrines of grace.

I accept God’s Word as it is written. There can be only one meaning and I have explained it in detail twice.

peace to you

 

[Van]

LOLROTFLLOL slap my leg and holler at the moon.
Folks, notice how many words of confusion were added to twist the truth clearly taught to fit a bias against the doctrines of grace.
I accept God’s Word as it is written. There can be only one meaning and I have explained it in detail twice.
peace to you

Were any words added to scripture? Nope.
Here are words confusing truth and twisting scripture:

Paul is very clearly stating God Holy Spirit is essential to every profession of faith resulting in salvation.​

The actual idea is that when we speak "by the Spirit" we speak in accordance with the truth as held by God"s Holy Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, when Paul states “no man says Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit” there are two possibilities.

1. The words “Jesus is Lord” cannot be uttered by any person “but by the Spirit”. As I explained already, this cannot be the intended meaning. Jesus stated many will call Him Lord in the day of judgment and He will respond that He never knew them.

There is only one possible meaning.

2. That no man says Jesus is Lord “but by the Spirit” clearly teaches an essential, enabling work of God Holy Spirit that makes a genuine statement of faith that leads to salvation possible.

There can be no other meaning.

I explained this in the first post.

I understand you have attempted to dismiss the meaning by claiming Paul is referring to secular ritual where Roman citizens where required to say Caesar was lord.

I disagree and accept the words of scripture in the context they were written.

peace to you

If you had read and considered the context, {1Co 11:17-12:11} as you claim to have done, you would see that it was not an attempt to dismiss what Paul had said but rather to clarify what he was saying to the Corinthians.

"A citizen of the Roman Empire was required once a year to put a pinch of incense on the altar and say, “Caesar is Lord!” This was anathema to believers. No true Christian could call anyone but Christ “Lord,” so this was a definite test of whether or not a person was saved." Wiersbe's Expository Outlines

You fail to understand that Paul was writing to believers and comparing their present state to when they were unsaved/pagans. 1Co 12:2 "You know that when you were pagans..."

When Paul wrote, 1Co 12:3 "Therefore I want you to know", what did he want these Corinthians to know?
1] Those that were indwelt by the Holy Spirit could not say "Jesus is accursed"
and
2] only those that were indwelt could truly say "Jesus is Lord".

So your attempt to use 1Co 12:3 to support your view fails. The context does not say what you need it to say.

From your first post and you continue to restate your position you are saying that the Holy Spirit must enable a person to believe but then we run headlong into the problem that you have made God responsible for all those that do not trust in Him and thus end up in hell. Your words "to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation." do not leave any wiggle room @canadyjd.

You have also failed to address the core problem in your view.

 

[canadyjd]

Were any words added to scripture? Nope.
Here are words confusing truth and twisting scripture:

Paul is very clearly stating God Holy Spirit is essential to every profession of faith resulting in salvation.​

The actual idea is that when we speak "by the Spirit" we speak in accordance with the truth as held by God"s Holy Spirit.

Folks, please notice the effort to dismiss the actual context of the passage.

Paul doesn’t say “when we speak by the spirit”, the passage says no man can say “Jesus is Lord” but by the spirit.

So, this poster attempts to change the context to mean whenever we speak in a general sense instead of the very specific speech “Jesus is Lord” which is the obvious context.

I will believe the passage as it is written. No reason to add many words or attempt to confuse the context to fit a bias against the doctrines of grace.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Folks, please notice the effort to dismiss the actual context of the passage.

Paul doesn’t say “when we speak by the spirit”, the passage says no man can say “Jesus is Lord” but by the spirit.

So, this poster attempts to change the context to mean whenever we speak in a general sense instead of the very specific speech “Jesus is Lord” which is the obvious context.

I will believe the passage as it is written. No reason to add many words or attempt to confuse the context to fit a bias against the doctrines of grace.

peace to you

Yet another flip-flop!!
They yank something out of context, then claim they are presenting something in context.

Then the phrase no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit does not mean no person can say Jesus is Lord but in accordance with the truth held by the Spirit. What are they saying, that the Spirit does not hold this as true?

 

[canadyjd]

If you had read and considered the context, {1Co 11:17-12:11} as you claim to have done, you would see that it was not an attempt to dismiss what Paul had said but rather to clarify what he was saying to the Corinthians.

"A citizen of the Roman Empire was required once a year to put a pinch of incense on the altar and say, “Caesar is Lord!” This was anathema to believers. No true Christian could call anyone but Christ “Lord,” so this was a definite test of whether or not a person was saved." Wiersbe's Expository Outlines

You fail to understand that Paul was writing to believers and comparing their present state to when they were unsaved/pagans. 1Co 12:2 "You know that when you were pagans..."

When Paul wrote, 1Co 12:3 "Therefore I want you to know", what did he want these Corinthians to know?
1] Those that were indwelt by the Holy Spirit could not say "Jesus is accursed"
and
2] only those that were indwelt could truly say "Jesus is Lord".

So your attempt to use 1Co 12:3 to support your view fails. The context does not say what you need it to say.

From your first post and you continue to restate your position you are saying that the Holy Spirit must enable a person to believe but then we run headlong into the problem that you have made God responsible for all those that do not trust in Him and thus end up in hell. Your words "to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation." do not leave any wiggle room @canadyjd.

You have also failed to address the core problem in your view.

You are partially correct. Paul was writing to believers in Corinth.

The purpose of 1 Corinthians 12 is to discuss the gifts of the Spirit of God.

For some, the focus was on speaking in tongues as proof of being indwelt by God Holy Spirit. As you noted earlier, the church was fracturing into groups based on doctrines concerning Spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:3 dispels any notion that speaking in tongues should be considered a superior gift or that those that didn’t speak in tongues did not possess the Spirit.

No man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit. Paul is saying each and every believer has been enabled by God Holy Spirit to say “Jesus is Lord” . They should have unity, not division. There are many gifts and many people have differing gifts and not all have the same gifts.

The context is clear and it supports my interpretation.

Your interpretation that Paul was referencing a pagan ritual concerning the emperor but didn’t really reveal specific truth concerning God Holy Spirit is not supported.

You have failed to offer a valid alternative to my interpretation, which cannot be done because the context is clear.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Yet another flip-flop!!
They yank something out of context, then claim they are presenting something in context.

Then the phrase no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit does not mean no person can say Jesus is Lord but in accordance with the truth held by the Spirit. What are they saying, that the Spirit does not hold this as true?

I am certain that in your mind, that made perfect sense.

You have a very confused way of thinking. You are so desperate to disprove the doctrines of grace, your mind spins out of control.

Not a good way to approach scripture.

peace to you

 

[37818]

1 Corinthians 12:3 context gives meaning.

Verse 3, . . . Jesus is Lord . . . .

Verse 4, . . . same Spirit . . . .

Verse 5, . . . same Lord . . . .

Verse 6, . . . same God which worketh all in all.

Our Lord Jesus is both Lord and God. See John 20:28, John 14:6, and 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[Van]

I am certain that in your mind, that made perfect sense.
You have a very confused way of thinking. You are so desperate to disprove the doctrines of grace, your mind spins out of control.
Not a good way to approach scripture.
peace to you

Yet another direct attack on me, note the number of "you" words.

Then the claim that the phrase no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit does not mean no person can say Jesus is Lord but in accordance with the truth held by the Spirit. What are they saying, that the Spirit does not hold this as true?

By the Spirit = In accordance with the Spirit.

Jesus is accursed = Not in accordance with the Spirit

Jesus is Lord = In accordance with the Spirit

 

[canadyjd]

Yet another direct attack on me, note the number of "you" words….

And now the inevitable claim of victimhood.

In your first response to my OP you stated….

….this claim is a complete and total fiction

…. using vague phraseology to deceive.
….Duh.
…. something more foul.
….Duh
……something more foul.
….What is being taught is false doctrine
……destructive heresies are introduced secretly.
….It is nonsense from beginning to end.

You do not understand how to debate without personal attacks and insults.

Go away, start another thread to slay “Calvinism”, all the while more people are going to hell because of slacking soul winners wasting precious time online (according to your ideology). Why are you here anyway?

peace to you