1 Corinthians 12:3

[Silverhair]

You are partially correct. Paul was writing to believers in Corinth.

The purpose of 1 Corinthians 12 is to discuss the gifts of the Spirit of God.

For some, the focus was on speaking in tongues as proof of being indwelt by God Holy Spirit. As you noted earlier, the church was fracturing into groups based on doctrines concerning Spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:3 dispels any notion that speaking in tongues should be considered a superior gift or that those that didn’t speak in tongues did not possess the Spirit.

No man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit. Paul is saying each and every believer has been enabled by God Holy Spirit to say “Jesus is Lord” . They should have unity, not division. There are many gifts and many people have differing gifts and not all have the same gifts.

The context is clear and it supports my interpretation.

Your interpretation that Paul was referencing a pagan ritual concerning the emperor but didn’t really reveal specific truth concerning God Holy Spirit is not supported.

You have failed to offer a valid alternative to my interpretation, which cannot be done because the context is clear.

peace to you

I understand that you need to have the text support your view but you have missed what Paul was saying in this text. It does not have to do with salvation as you suppose but rather the truth of their spiritual condition.

Only those that a saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, can truthfully say "Jesus is Lord" and those that are truly saved would never say "Jesus is accursed". That is the point Paul is making in this text.

"Paul states that he does not want the readers to be ignorant (v. 1Co_12:1). Then he asserts that they know their religious past (v. 1Co_12:2). And finally he declares that he makes known to them how to profess that Jesus is Lord (v. 1Co_12:3)." Baker's New Testament Commentary

It is obvious that you are reading into the text what your theology requires but the text does not support your view.

 

[canadyjd]

I understand that you need to have the text support your view but you have missed what Paul was saying in this text. It does not have to do with salvation as you suppose but rather the truth of their spiritual condition.

Only those that a saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, can truthfully say "Jesus is Lord" and those that are truly saved would never say "Jesus is accursed". That is the point Paul is making in this text.

"Paul states that he does not want the readers to be ignorant (v. 1Co_12:1). Then he asserts that they know their religious past (v. 1Co_12:2). And finally he declares that he makes known to them how to profess that Jesus is Lord (v. 1Co_12:3)." Baker's New Testament Commentary

It is obvious that you are reading into the text what your theology requires but the text does not support your view.

I appreciate your civil response. I disagree.

However, you are getting closer to understanding. You stated that “only those that are saved, indwelt by God Holy Spirit can truthfully say Jesus is Lord.”

You see it as referring to after salvation and add “truthfully say Jesus is Lord”. That comes close to saying God Holy Spirit is a compulsionist, compelling people to say, Jesus is Lord, after they are saved.

For Paul to say, “no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”, must refer to coming to saving faith. Otherwise, the force of the statement is Lost.

As mentioned, the church at Corinth was fracturing. All factions were saying “Jesus is Lord,” (except maybe Jewish leaders that denied Jesus was the Messiah because He was accursed by hanging on a tree)

Paul statement, imo, is one of unity. Every person owes their salvation to the work of God Holy Spirit.

I am not su

 

[DaveXR650]

For Paul to say, “no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”, must refer to coming to saving faith. Otherwise, the force of the statement is Lost.

Exactly. The problem you face when you attribute initial belief to an act of your free will is that in order for you to will this you first had to believe if is true. So you are back where you started.

 

[canadyjd]

Exactly. The problem you face when you attribute initial belief to an act of your free will is that in order for you to will this you first had to believe if is true. So you are back where you started.

Agreed.

Additionally, if Paul had intended to say only those that can “truthfully say Jesus is Lord” do so by the Spirit, that would only had led to further divisions within the church as the different factions would claim any that disagreed with their position didn’t “truthfully say” Jesus is Lord.

The only way the statement has force is for Paul to be saying all claiming Jesus as Lord could only do so “by the Spirit”. Don’t think more highly of yourself because of the doctrine you hold.

This is further elaborated in chapter 13 and the “love motivation”. Love being the greatest gift of God and essential for all the brethren.

peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

It seems like if you find yourself saying "Jesus is Lord" it would be a great comfort to read in scripture that this is evidence of the Spirit working in you, regardless of your other theological beliefs.

 

[Silverhair]

I appreciate your civil response. I disagree.

However, you are getting closer to understanding. You stated that “only those that are saved, indwelt by God Holy Spirit can truthfully say Jesus is Lord.”

You see it as referring to after salvation and add “truthfully say Jesus is Lord”. That comes close to saying God Holy Spirit is a compulsionist, compelling people to say, Jesus is Lord, after they are saved.

For Paul to say, “no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”, must refer to coming to saving faith. Otherwise, the force of the statement is Lost.

As mentioned, the church at Corinth was fracturing. All factions were saying “Jesus is Lord,” (except maybe Jewish leaders that denied Jesus was the Messiah because He was accursed by hanging on a tree)

Paul statement, imo, is one of unity. Every person owes their salvation to the work of God Holy Spirit.

I am not su

I will say one thing for you, you have a unique way of looking at things. How do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit would cause someone to say "Jesus is Lord " from the context of 1Co 12:3? You are so far from the truth of that text it is astounding.

How does the ability of a saved person to say "Jesus is Lord" come close to making the Holy Spirit a compulsionist? Are you saying that the only time you, @canadyjd, would say "Jesus is Lord " is if the Holy Spirit forced you to do so? Are you saying that you have no ability of an independent thought? That is a serious question as that is what your responses are suggesting.

You said "All factions were saying “Jesus is Lord,”" except the Jewish leaders but they would not have been called brothers as they denied Christ so Paul would not be writing to them.

Then you question that only those that are saved could truthfully say “Jesus is Lord,” and claim it must mean coming to faith when the context shows that Paul is writing to believers. Are you going to say Paul was wrong in his assessment when he called them brothers and former pagans.

I am not denying that God draws people to Himself and only He can save a person but that is not what Paul is speaking of in these verses. You continue to read into the text what is not there.

You have said, the Holy Spirit makes a person ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation. But there is a vast difference between your view and the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sin and drawing them to God via the gospel message which they can accept and say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation or they can deny its' truths and reject the message of salvation.

 

[Van]

And now the inevitable claim of victimhood.

You do not understand how to debate without personal attacks and insults.

Go away, start another thread to slay “Calvinism”, all the while more people are going to hell because of slacking soul winners wasting precious time online (according to your ideology). Why are you here anyway?

peace to you

Yet another post dedicated to attacking me, because I point out you use against the person arguments rather than addressing the topic.

Then the claim that the phrase no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit does not mean no person can say Jesus is Lord but in accordance with the truth held by the Spirit. What are they saying, that the Spirit does not hold this as true?

By the Spirit = In accordance with the Spirit.

Jesus is accursed = Not in accordance with the Spirit

Jesus is Lord = In accordance with the Spirit

 

[Van]

It seems like if you find yourself saying "Jesus is Lord" it would be a great comfort to read in scripture that this is evidence of the Spirit working in you, regardless of your other theological beliefs.

No one should get comfort by believing what is not said by scripture.

Scripture should be understood correctly, such as by studying the word to show ourselves approved. Reading into scripture what tickles our fancy is wrong.

Ever wonder how some people have "little faith" if that faith was instilled by irresistible grace? Or why Jesus says "Your faith has saved you" if the faith had been instilled. Finding doctrine a person was indoctrinated with simply demonstrates spiritual blindness.

 

[Silverhair]

Exactly. The problem you face when you attribute initial belief to an act of your free will is that in order for you to will this you first had to believe if is true. So you are back where you started.

If it is not an act of a free will then it has to be a determined by something outside the person. If you go that route then you are making God responsible for all those who are not saved as they can rightly claim that the Holy Spirit did not make them believe.

We are told the gospel is the power of God for salvation to all those who believe, not all those the Holy Spirit makes believe.

When the person hears the gospel message their act of a free will is to either to believe it or reject it. We see this clearly stated in scripture, hear the gospel, believe the gospel saved by the Holy Spirit.

Dave your comment is not well thought out. The act of a free will is to either trust in or reject the information they are presented.
Belief is an act of the free will unless you think there is another way someone comes to believe something.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave your comment is not well thought out. The act of a free will is to either trust in or reject the information they are presented.
Belief is an act of the free will unless you think there is another way someone comes to believe something.

The way I look at it is that indeed your will is involved in either trusting or rejecting the information. What I think the scripture is saying is that the Spirit reveals it to you that indeed Jesus is legitimately Lord. I keep saying this and you never get it. If you want to say you choose to say it then I have no problem with that. But I'm only saying that you chose to say that because it became apparent to you, somehow, that it was true - before you decided to say it. You cannot will that something become apparent to you.

 

[DaveXR650]

No one should get comfort by believing what is not said by scripture.

True. Except in this case it is.

Ever wonder how some people have "little faith" if that faith was instilled by irresistible grace?

I think about that quite a lot. It puzzles me too. It also puzzles me how when you reduce it to a set of facts, which naturally have no real importance to you because you are unaware of any problem with God, any sin you have committed, any wrong you have done or any thing you have left undone - how your free will is supposed to figure out that your eternal destiny depends on your decision in the matter. The fact is there is a lot more that goes on when the Holy Spirit works faith in a person.

It's not like other decisions in our lives which by nature we are well equipped to make. I will wisely choose a cheese burger over a centipede because I like it more. But I have been equipped with a bunch of genetic equipment and bodily functions that help me choose wisely. In salvation, everything is amiss and I tend to think I'm not that bad, religious stuff is foolish, I'm doing fine on my own, and so on. I need decisive outside help and the Bible says the Holy Spirit does it. Maybe some Calvinists go to far in the describing of this but in principle they are most likely closest to the truth.

 

[Van]

True. Except in this case it is.

I think about that quite a lot. It puzzles me too. It also puzzles me how when you reduce it to a set of facts, which naturally have no real importance to you because you are unaware of any problem with God, any sin you have committed, any wrong you have done or any thing you have left undone - how your free will is supposed to figure out that your eternal destiny depends on your decision in the matter. The fact is there is a lot more that goes on when the Holy Spirit works faith in a person.

It's not like other decisions in our lives which by nature we are well equipped to make. I will wisely choose a cheese burger over a centipede because I like it more. But I have been equipped with a bunch of genetic equipment and bodily functions that help me choose wisely. In salvation, everything is amiss and I tend to think I'm not that bad, religious stuff is foolish, I'm doing fine on my own, and so on. I need decisive outside help and the Bible says the Holy Spirit does it. Maybe some Calvinists go to far in the describing of this but in principle they are most likely closest to the truth.

A lot of verbiage, but false doctrine.

"The Holy Spirit works faith in a person." Does this phrase have a plain meaning? Nope. Is this a secret claim that the faith we put in Christ by our choice, was actually instilled as the gift of the Holy Spirit. But if that is the claim, why not say what you mean?

Next, the fiction that we are compelled by past experience to make our future choices is trotted once again. Never mind scripture says when life or death is set before us, we are able to make that choice. This claim says we can only make the choice predestined by our past. Thus a denial of scripture.

Does the Bible say the Holy Spirit takes "decisive" action? Nope. We are punished for our choice, and if we are unable to chose life without being compelled by the Holy Spirit, once again choice has been redefined to mean non-choice.

Calvinist doctrine is far from Biblical doctrine. The Bible says we are to "call" on the name of the Lord and your claim is that we cannot. The Bible says everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Your doctrine says no one can choose to believe.

Lastly note that the claim, inability to choose life, without being enabled by the Holy Spirit, has no actual support in scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

I will say one thing for you, you have a unique way of looking at things. How do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit would cause someone to say "Jesus is Lord " from the context of 1Co 12:3? You are so far from the truth of that text it is astounding.

How does the ability of a saved person to say "Jesus is Lord" come close to making the Holy Spirit a compulsionist? Are you saying that the only time you, @canadyjd, would say "Jesus is Lord " is if the Holy Spirit forced you to do so? Are you saying that you have no ability of an independent thought? That is a serious question as that is what your responses are suggesting.

You said "All factions were saying “Jesus is Lord,”" except the Jewish leaders but they would not have been called brothers as they denied Christ so Paul would not be writing to them.

Then you question that only those that are saved could truthfully say “Jesus is Lord,” and claim it must mean coming to faith when the context shows that Paul is writing to believers. Are you going to say Paul was wrong in his assessment when he called them brothers and former pagans.

I am not denying that God draws people to Himself and only He can save a person but that is not what Paul is speaking of in these verses. You continue to read into the text what is not there.

You have said, the Holy Spirit makes a person ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation. But there is a vast difference between your view and the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sin and drawing them to God via the gospel message which they can accept and say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation or they can deny its' truths and reject the message of salvation.

Wow! That is a lot of words to just say “one thing” to me.

First, I have never stated God Holy Spirit forces anyone to say “Jesus is Lord. So I really don’t get your point.

Your statement, however, that believers say Jesus is Lord by the Spirit does come close to the compulsions idea.

I understand you see a difference between God Holy Spirit enabling folks to say “Jesus is Lord” and the work of God Holy Spirit in conviction of sin and truth of the gospel and drawing people to Christ.

I don’t see any real difference there. I suppose our disagreement comes in the scope (who is effected) and the possible outcome (all who are so effected place faith in Jesus or not).

I am satisfied, however, that you are acknowledging the essential of God Holy Spirit in bringing folks to salvation.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Yet another post dedicated to attacking me, because I point out you use against the person arguments rather than addressing the topic

Pot meet kettle

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

The way I look at it is that indeed your will is involved in either trusting or rejecting the information. What I think the scripture is saying is that the Spirit reveals it to you that indeed Jesus is legitimately Lord. I keep saying this and you never get it. If you want to say you choose to say it then I have no problem with that. But I'm only saying that you chose to say that because it became apparent to you, somehow, that it was true - before you decided to say it. You cannot will that something become apparent to you.

Dave you just agreed with what I have been saying to you all along and which you have continued up to this point to disagree with. A person can only agree or disagree with something that they have been given information about. It is not a matter of them willing something to become apparent to them it is a matter of using their free will to decide to believe or to reject that information.

That is biblical free will and that is why God can and will hold man responsible for the choices they make. The bible is clear on this Dave, we hear the gospel, we believe the gospel and God saves us. If we freely reject the gospel then God does not save us.

Obviously a person has to agree with the gospel message before they will say it is true. If they do not agree then they would reject it. That is just simple logic. But at the end of the day they either make that choice freely or it is determined for them. You seem to have now come down on the side of determined by your statement "the Spirit reveals it to you that indeed Jesus is legitimately Lord". By your logic the Spirit has to do this so for all those that do not believe they can say the Holy Spirit did not reveal it to me. Then you have to ask why not since God wants all to come to repentance and knowledge of the truth. So you see Dave if you require God to make man able, as @canadyjd says, or has to reveal it to you then you drop all the responsibility back on God. God said man has no excuse for not knowing Him so the truth is there but man has to choose how he will deal with this truth.

That is why we are told in scripture that the gospel is the power of God for salvation for those that believe. Man is responsible too use his God given free will to make life changing choices. You and @canadyjd have taken that responsibility away from them.

 

[DaveXR650]

"The Holy Spirit works faith in a person." Does this phrase have a plain meaning? Nope. Is this a secret claim that the faith we put in Christ by our choice, was actually instilled as the gift of the Holy Spirit. But if that is the claim, why not say what you mean?

I'll try. Say you were on the way to persecute believers because you hated them and you hated this one called Jesus. Suddenly, a blinding light struck you down and you heard a voice, telling you you were on the wrong track. You completely changed your mind because of that and later called yourself the chief of sinners. You heard from someone else that you were a chosen vessel and that you were destined to find out how much you must suffer for the Lord you had once persecuted. Somewhere in all that you believed, without evaluating a set of propositions and deciding on your own free will to change. I'm saying just like all the Reformers did, that the gospel message, circumstances, miracles, trials, events, influence of people around you, and all that is used by the Spirit to work faith in you, without violating your free will. Of course each of us has our own story. And if you really did just sit down and decide to believe I accept that too. I still think the Holy Spirit was at work there.

 

[Van]

Pot meet kettle

peace to you

Yet another post addressing me and running away from the topic.

The bogus claim is that the phrase no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit cannot mean no person can say Jesus is Lord but in accordance with the Spirit.

By the Spirit = In accordance with the Spirit.

Jesus is accursed = Not in accordance with the Spirit

Jesus is Lord = In accordance with the Spirit

 

[Van]

I'll try. Say you were on the way to persecute believers because you hated them and you hated this one called Jesus. Suddenly, a blinding light struck you down and you heard a voice, telling you you were on the wrong track. You completely changed your mind because of that and later called yourself the chief of sinners. You heard from someone else that you were a chosen vessel and that you were destined to find out how much you must suffer for the Lord you had once persecuted. Somewhere in all that you believed, without evaluating a set of propositions and deciding on your own free will to change. I'm saying just like all the Reformers did, that the gospel message, circumstances, miracles, trials, events, influence of people around you, and all that is used by the Spirit to work faith in you, without violating your free will. Of course each of us has our own story. And if you really did just sit down and decide to believe I accept that too. I still think the Holy Spirit was at work there.

Sir, you are just making up nonsense. Do you know Paul did not evaluate what He thought was true and decided to trust in the Lord? Nope, yet you posted it as if it had a basis in reality.

God says we make the choice and you say, no the Holy Spirit actually makes the choice. We make the choice according to scripture.

And again you say "the Holy Spirit was at work there" as if that had been denied. Everything we learn about the gospel is the work product of the Holy Spirit who inspired scripture. Is that what you meant? Probably not. No one comes to Me except they have been drawn by the Father. Yes, we are attracted by the gospel teaching God loved us while we were yet sinners, and demonstrated that love by dying for us. Is that what you meant? Probably not.

How about the purpose of the Law, yet another work product of the Holy Spirit, is to lead the lost to Christ. Is that what you meant? Probably not.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave you just agreed with what I have been saying to you all along and which you have continued up to this point to disagree with. A person can only agree or disagree with something that they have been given information about. It is not a matter of them willing something to become apparent to them it is a matter of using their free will to decide to believe or to reject that information.

It is what you say above but also much more and that is the problem. Saying that "Jesus is Lord" in the context of the scripture at the time required a huge, serious commitment, and a whole new inclination of your soul. It was a life changing thing, often for the worse in a physical sense, to say that. This is not something we will do without the Holy Spirit if you believe the scripture. But yes, you do have to have the raw information.

 

[DaveXR650]

Do you know Paul did not evaluate what He thought was true and decided to trust in the Lord? Nope, yet you posted it as if it had a basis in reality.

Yes. In Acts 9:6 he immediately answered "Lord, what would you have me to do". Sorry Van, but he was made willing.

And again you say "the Holy Spirit was at work there" as if that had been denied. Everything we learn about the gospel is the work product of the Holy Spirit who inspired scripture. Is that what you meant? Probably not. No one comes to Me except they have been drawn by the Father. Yes, we are attracted by the gospel teaching God loved us while we were yet sinners, and demonstrated that love by dying for us. Is that what you meant? Probably not.

It is what I mean but think about this for a minute. If the words in scripture have some power to change you, does not that mean the Holy Spirit is working on your heart. Words are words, even if they are scripture.