1 Corinthians 12:3

[Silverhair]

Wow! That is a lot of words to just say “one thing” to me.

First, I have never stated God Holy Spirit forces anyone to say “Jesus is Lord. So I really don’t get your point.

Your statement, however, that believers say Jesus is Lord by the Spirit does come close to the compulsions idea.

I understand you see a difference between God Holy Spirit enabling folks to say “Jesus is Lord” and the work of God Holy Spirit in conviction of sin and truth of the gospel and drawing people to Christ.

I don’t see any real difference there. I suppose our disagreement comes in the scope (who is effected) and the possible outcome (all who are so effected place faith in Jesus or not).

I am satisfied, however, that you are acknowledging the essential of God Holy Spirit in bringing folks to salvation.

peace to you

Did you not see the ??? mark at the end of the sentence? Here are the questions again.
Are you saying that the only time you, @canadyjd, would say "Jesus is Lord " is if the Holy Spirit forced you to do so?
Are you saying that you have no ability of an independent thought?

When I said only those that are saved can “truthfully say Jesus is Lord” you said that came close to saying the Holy Spirit is a compulsionist. I have to ask how a person making a free will comment equates to coming close to saying the Holy Spirit is a compulsionist, compelling people to say, Jesus is Lord, after they are saved.

But since we both agree the Holy Spirit is not a compulsionist then you must agree that man has a free will with which to say "Jesus is Lord".

Would you be so kind as to show me where I made the statement "that believers say Jesus is Lord by the Spirit". That is not a position I hold as that would make the Holy Spirit a compulsionist so I think you are just attempting to muddy the waters.

I do agree the real difference is in the scope, the whole world or a select few and the possible response of those that are influenced by the various means God uses to draw people to Himself.

Only God can save and He only saves those that believe in Him.

 

[Silverhair]

It is what you say above but also much more and that is the problem. Saying that "Jesus is Lord" in the context of the scripture at the time required a huge, serious commitment, and a whole new inclination of your soul. It was a life changing thing, often for the worse in a physical sense, to say that. This is not something we will do without the Holy Spirit if you believe the scripture. But yes, you do have to have the raw information.

Where the divide comes in Dave is that you say that only because of the influence of the Holy Spirit will one trust in God. Whereas I say that the Holy Spirit will provide the information and conviction but the person has to choose freely to trust in God.

As I see it with your view you have taken the responsibility away from man and placed it on the Holy Spirit. If He does not do that for an individual then they have the best excuse going for not trusting in God, the Holy Spirit did not influence him to do so.

So while we disagree on how the Holy Spirits' influence works I think we both agree that only God saves and He only saves those that believe.

 

[canadyjd]

Did you not see the ??? mark at the end of the sentence? Here are the questions again.

Are you saying that the only time you, @canadyjd, would say "Jesus is Lord " is if the Holy Spirit forced you to do so? ..

Are you saying that you have no ability of an independent thought? .

Did you read my response? I will say it again. Here it comes. NOTE!!!!! I am about to answer your question AGAIN!

I have never claimed God Holy Spirit forced anyone to say “Jesus is Lord”?

The ability for independents thought does not equate to an ability to chose faith in Jesus without the intervention of God Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:3 “no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”

Plain and simple. Cut and dry.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Yes. In Acts 9:6 he immediately answered "Lord, what would you have me to do". Sorry Van, but he was made willing.

It is what I mean but think about this for a minute. If the words in scripture have some power to change you, does not that mean the Holy Spirit is working on your heart. Words are words, even if they are scripture.

I think you are referencing Acts of the Apostles 22:10. Just because someone asks what to do to be saved or walk in accordance with the desires of God, does not mean they have be born anew. Recall the rich young ruler?

 

[Silverhair]

Did you read my response? I will say it again. Here it comes. NOTE!!!!! I am about to answer your question AGAIN!

I have never claimed God Holy Spirit forced anyone to say “Jesus is Lord”?

The ability for independents thought does not equate to an ability to chose faith in Jesus without the intervention of God Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:3 “no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”

Plain and simple. Cut and dry.

peace to you

So you continue to ignore context. Paul is speaking to believers but you dismiss that and this leads to your errant understanding of the text.

Where does it say that man has no ability to trust in God? Context shows that Paul is telling the Corinthians that only those that believe in Christ can truthfully say "Jesus is Lord".

The only way you can justify your view is to pull words out of context.

Once again, context matters.
"Paul states that he does not want the readers to be ignorant (v. 1 Corinthians 12:1).
Then he asserts that they know their religious past (v. 1 Corinthians 12:2).
And finally he declares that he makes known to them how to profess that Jesus is Lord (v. 1 Corinthians 12:3)."

"It means that in the Corinthian context we are able to separate the past (v. 1 Corinthians 12:2) from the present (v. 1 Corinthians 12:3). Paul is now speaking about the spiritual life of the believers in Corinth. He says that he is going to make something known to them (compare 1 Corinthians 15:1; 2 Corinthians 8:1; Galatians 1:1)" Baker's New Testament Commentary

You can continue to ignore the context but as long as you do you will continue to have a misunderstanding of the Word of God.

Plain and simple. Cut and dry.

 

[Van]

Ever see a poster proclaim an obviously false premise with the claim the view is necessitated by the context, but then never present the "context?" False teachers seem to use the word as their "shibboleth," a word without real meaning.

 

[canadyjd]

So you continue to ignore context. Paul is speaking to believers but you dismiss that and this leads to your errant understanding of the text.

Where does it say that man has no ability to trust in God? Context shows that Paul is telling the Corinthians that only those that believe in Christ can truthfully say "Jesus is Lord".

The only way you can justify your view is to pull words out of context.

Once again, context matters.
"Paul states that he does not want the readers to be ignorant (v. 1 Corinthians 12:1).
Then he asserts that they know their religious past (v. 1 Corinthians 12:2).
And finally he declares that he makes known to them how to profess that Jesus is Lord (v. 1 Corinthians 12:3)."

"It means that in the Corinthian context we are able to separate the past (v. 1 Corinthians 12:2) from the present (v. 1 Corinthians 12:3). Paul is now speaking about the spiritual life of the believers in Corinth. He says that he is going to make something known to them (compare 1 Corinthians 15:1; 2 Corinthians 8:1; Galatians 1:1)" Baker's New Testament Commentary

You can continue to ignore the context but as long as you do you will continue to have a misunderstanding of the Word of God.

Plain and simple. Cut and dry.

Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true

I have embraced the context and the truth of the passage I don’t think you understand it at all.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Ever see a poster proclaim an obviously false premise with the claim the view is necessitated by the context?….

Yes! Every single time you quote scripture and say, “let’s rewrite this passage”!

peace to you

 

[percho]

I Wonder

that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Will that be by the Holy Spirit or because of a twisted arm?

When, when will every knee and every tongue?

 

[Silverhair]

Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true

I have embraced the context and the truth of the passage I don’t think you understand it at all.

peace to you

If you had embraced the context and truth of the passage you would not make such an obvious error.

You are letting your theological bias cloud your vision.

From your first post you have been presenting your errant view "Paul is stating God Holy Spirit is essential for each and every person to be saved to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation."

That is not in the verse nor is it found in the context of those verses. Paul is writing to believers but you continue to close your eyes to this truth.

The fact is that you do not understand the context or the truth of that verse. Or perhaps you do understand it but you choose to ignore it as it does not fit your theological view.

In either case your view is not supported by the text.

 

[Silverhair]

I Wonder

that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Will that be by the Holy Spirit or because of a twisted arm?

When, when will every knee and every tongue?

When they accept as truth that Christ Jesus is LORD. They have had the information regarding Christ but have denied the truth of said information.

When Christ comes in glory they will not be able to deny this truth any more.

What you must understand is that they will not be forced to make that choice, no twisted arm or the Holy Spirit causing/forcing them to do so.

 

[percho]

When they accept as truth that Christ Jesus is LORD. They have had the information regarding Christ but have denied the truth of said information.

When Christ comes in glory they will not be able to deny this truth any more.

What you must understand is that they will not be forced to make that choice, no twisted arm or the Holy Spirit causing/forcing them to do so.

I guess they will see the light.

 

[DaveXR650]

Where the divide comes in Dave is that you say that only because of the influence of the Holy Spirit will one trust in God. Whereas I say that the Holy Spirit will provide the information and conviction but the person has to choose freely to trust in God.

As I see it with your view you have taken the responsibility away from man and placed it on the Holy Spirit. If He does not do that for an individual then they have the best excuse going for not trusting in God, the Holy Spirit did not influence him to do so.

So while we disagree on how the Holy Spirits' influence works I think we both agree that only God saves and He only saves those that believe.

@Silverhair. I think what causes a lot of trouble is the fact that Calvinism, at least the guys I read, do teach God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I have Charles Hodge's "Systematic Theology" and he says, after spending pages defending and supporting Augustinian Calvinism the following: "It is perfectly true, in one aspect, that God determines according to his good pleasure the destiny of every human being; and it is equally true, in another aspect, that every man determines his own destiny. These truths can both be established on the firmest grounds. Their consistency, therefore, must be admitted as fact, even though we may not be able to discover it."

So what happens is most modern men refuse to accept this as they believe it is a logical contradiction. But doing so will guarantee you will come up against problem scriptures. And it will lead to logical leaps either to the idea that everything is so predetermined that God is the direct cause of sin; or you will begin a doctrinal drift in an effort to make God appear "fair" and equitable in our modern eyes - and I promise you will end up with God being not fair and less loving than the average human (which is precisely the argument a lot of anti-Calvinist theologians are using).

I can also promise you that someone will come on here and claim that this is wishy-washy or indecisive, even though I just quoted one of the best theologians we have, and even though I have discovered that all the Puritan theologians and preachers taught the exact same principle, not to mention it being clearly stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

So what I think is that at the point where you are in the least bit aware of the gospel and concerned about it and aware you need to be saved, the Holy Spirit has already been at work, and in a sovereign and specific way to you as an individual. But all you are aware of is your need and like our pastor said just recently, when the Philippian jailer said "what must I do to be saved" Paul did not say, well, you can't do anything because it is all of God. No, he said to believe because he was not concerned with the theological nuances at that time.

 

[Van]

Yes! Every single time you quote scripture and say, “let’s rewrite this passage”!

peace to you

Yet another petty, you, you you post devoid of any on topic material.

Ever see a poster proclaim an obviously false premise with the claim the view is necessitated by the context, but then never present the "context?" False teachers seem to use the word as their "shibboleth," a word without real meaning.

Folks what does "by the Spirit" mean in 1 Corinthians 12:3? Does this mean the words are being formulated and spoken by the Supernatural power of the Holy Spirit? Nope. The actual idea is that no one speaking in accordance with the Holy Spirit says Jesus is accursed, and no one not speaking in accordance with the Holy Spirit says Jesus is the Lord.

 

[canadyjd]

I Wonder

that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Will that be by the Holy Spirit or because of a twisted arm?

When, when will every knee and every tongue?

Good question.

I think being in the presence of God will be so overwhelming that we will naturally fall to our knees, believer and unbeliever (though at that point, I suppose there will no longer be any “unbelievers”, as all will know the Truth.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Yet another petty, you, you you post devoid of any on topic material.

Ever see a poster proclaim an obviously false premise with the claim the view is necessitated by the context, but then never present the "context?" False teachers seem to use the word as their "shibboleth," a word without real meaning.

Folks what does "by the Spirit" mean in 1 Corinthians 12:3? Does this mean the words are being formulated and spoken by the Supernatural power of the Holy Spirit? Nope. The actual idea is that no one speaking in accordance with the Holy Spirit says Jesus is accursed, and no one not speaking in accordance with the Holy Spirit says Jesus is the Lord.

Another straw man argument. I haven’t said God Holy Spirit formulates the words in our mouths.

I have have stated God Holy Spirit enables all believers to say “Jesus is Lord”. That is literally what the passage says. “No man says Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”

I see this poster must, once again, “rewrite” the passage to make it conform to his bias, using a double negative just to add more confusion to this twisted version.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

If you had embraced the context and truth of the passage you would not make such an obvious error.

You are letting your theological bias cloud your vision.

From your first post you have been presenting your errant view "Paul is stating God Holy Spirit is essential for each and every person to be saved to be ABLE to say “Jesus is Lord” leading to salvation."

That is not in the verse nor is it found in the context of those verses. Paul is writing to believers but you continue to close your eyes to this truth.

The fact is that you do not understand the context or the truth of that verse. Or perhaps you do understand it but you choose to ignore it as it does not fit your theological view.

In either case your view is not supported by the text.

And so I disagree. Paul is very clearly stating God Holy Spirit is essential in every genuine profession of faith.

“No man says Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”

It is simple to understand if you will just accept the plain meaning of the words.

My only bias is always believing what scripture says in the context in which it was written, without any pre-conceived notions of what it should mean.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair. I think what causes a lot of trouble is the fact that Calvinism, at least the guys I read, do teach God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I have Charles Hodge's "Systematic Theology" and he says, after spending pages defending and supporting Augustinian Calvinism the following: "It is perfectly true, in one aspect, that God determines according to his good pleasure the destiny of every human being; and it is equally true, in another aspect, that every man determines his own destiny. These truths can both be established on the firmest grounds. Their consistency, therefore, must be admitted as fact, even though we may not be able to discover it."

So what happens is most modern men refuse to accept this as they believe it is a logical contradiction. But doing so will guarantee you will come up against problem scriptures. And it will lead to logical leaps either to the idea that everything is so predetermined that God is the direct cause of sin; or you will begin a doctrinal drift in an effort to make God appear "fair" and equitable in our modern eyes - and I promise you will end up with God being not fair and less loving than the average human (which is precisely the argument a lot of anti-Calvinist theologians are using).

I can also promise you that someone will come on here and claim that this is wishy-washy or indecisive, even though I just quoted one of the best theologians we have, and even though I have discovered that all the Puritan theologians and preachers taught the exact same principle, not to mention it being clearly stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

So what I think is that at the point where you are in the least bit aware of the gospel and concerned about it and aware you need to be saved, the Holy Spirit has already been at work, and in a sovereign and specific way to you as an individual. But all you are aware of is your need and like our pastor said just recently, when the Philippian jailer said "what must I do to be saved" Paul did not say, well, you can't do anything because it is all of God. No, he said to believe because he was not concerned with the theological nuances at that time.

I understand that you like Hodge and the Puritan's and even the WCF but the one common thread is they are all coming from a Calvinist mind set. That being said they are right on two points 1] God is sovereign & 2] man is responsible for the choices he makes.

If God in His sovereignty determined the destiny of every human being, as Calvinist theology requires, {WCF/LBCF or TULIP/DoG} then to say that man in some way determines his destiny is to say the least illogical. Can man overrule what your Calvinist God has determined? Of course not.

Now if you were to say that God determines each man's destiny depending on whether they accept or reject Him then that is biblical. Just as man is responsible for the choices he makes in regard to his response to the gospel message.

God in His sovereignty has determined that He will save those that freely trust in Him. He has provided various means by which man can know Him. How they choose to respond to those various means will determine whether they are saved or lost.

What I do find strange is how you continue to fall back to God having to be "fair". Where does it say in scripture that God has to be fair, nowhere. It does tell us that God is just so with that in mind logically He would not predetermine the destiny of every person. As scripture says; Rom 3:26 He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

I have never said the God does not influence a person or convict a person of their sin. Where we differ is that you think the Holy Spirit has to be the decisive factor. If He is the decisive factor then why only be decisive in such a small group since God wants all to come to salvation? Do we have a conflict in the Godhead?

The Philippian jailer believed because he used his God given free will to evaluate the information presented by Paul and chose to trust in the risen Christ. There is no theological nuance to the gospel message, that is something that Calvinists have brought into the message of the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

And so I disagree. Paul is very clearly stating God Holy Spirit is essential in every genuine profession of faith.

“No man says Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”

It is simple to understand if you will just accept the plain meaning of the words.

My only bias is always believing what scripture says in the context in which it was written, without any pre-conceived notions of what it should mean.

Peace to you

In the context was Paul speaking to the saved or unsaved?
1Co 12:1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
1Co 12:2 You know that when you were pagans, you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

You say you read in context then deny the context. You are very confused or deliberately ignoring the context.

I understand that it is hard for you to accept this truth but the text does not support what you are claiming it says.

 

[Silverhair]

Another straw man argument. I haven’t said God Holy Spirit formulates the words in our mouths.

I have have stated God Holy Spirit enables all believers to say “Jesus is Lord”. That is literally what the passage says. “No man says Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit”

I see this poster must, once again, “rewrite” the passage to make it conform to his bias, using a double negative just to add more confusion to this twisted version.

peace to you

Paul is telling the Corinthians "Now that they are saved, the believers must know how to judge all spirit-manifestations, that is, how to discern between the voice of evil spirits and the authentic voice of the Holy Spirit. The crucial test is the testimony that is given concerning the Lord Jesus. If a man says, “Jesus is accursed,” you can be sure that he is demon-inspired, because evil spirits characteristically blaspheme and curse the name of Jesus. The Spirit of God would never lead anyone to speak of the Savior in this way; His ministry is to exalt the Lord Jesus." BELIEVER'S BIBLE COMMENTARY

That is the message found it 1 Corinthians 12:1-3 not as you have tried to foist on the text
"Paul is very clearly stating God Holy Spirit is essential to every profession of faith resulting in salvation." @canadyjd post #1

You continue to miss or just ignore that clear fact Paul is writing to people that are saved. That is why you need to read verses in context. It will keep you from making the logical errors such as you have been making.