A person without the Spirit is lost -- that is the plight of the person in 1 Cor. 2:14 --who regards the things of the Spirit of God as foolishness. That person is an unbeliever, unsaved, lost, unregenerate. Can any believer consider the things of the Spirit of God as foolishness? Really?! No way. This individual is lost, without hope, without God in this world.
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1 Corinthians 2:14 does not teach total inability
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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The context of 1 Cor. 2 is not the gospel, it's the deep things of God.
The context of 1 Cor 2 is understanding "spiritual wisdom" (v. 6) the "hidden wisdom of God" (v. 7), the "deep things of God" (v. 10), and the "spiritual things the Holy Spirit teaches" (v. 13).
The natural man (unsaved man) does not understand these deeper things of God. But God has revealed the Gospel to everyone and the unsaved man CAN understand the Gospel.
There is no "deep spiritual level" to the gospel. It's simple and easy to understand.
Dave G
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For those that are saved, I would agree:
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
The preaching of the cross ( the Gospel ) is foolishness to them that are perishing ( the lost ).
To us which are saved, it is the power of God.
Therefore, anyone who the Gospel gets a hold of, convicts them of their sin and need of a Saviour, is saved.
They evidence that by their belief of it.
Anyone who it does not, automatically thinks it is foolishness, because they are of "them that perish".
Let us praise the Lord for His salvation, because the Gospel is hid to them that are lost:
" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Good afternoon to you.
Any given chapter of the Bible has sections in it that are not necessarily related to other portions. Chapter divisions are not divinely ordained of God. Do you acknowledge that the person in 2:14 is distinctly different from the person in verse 15?
Here's verse 15 from the NET : "The one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is understood by no one."
The two individuals are completely different. The one in verse 14 is a not a believer -- is not Spirit indwelt. On the other hand, the person in verse 15 is a believer. I'll cite the NLT here :"Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others."
Diametrically different individuals. The unsaved in v.14 and regenerate in verse 15.
Here's verse 15 from the NET : "The one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is understood by no one."
The two individuals are completely different. The one in verse 14 is a not a believer -- is not Spirit indwelt. On the other hand, the person in verse 15 is a believer. I'll cite the NLT here :"Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others."
Diametrically different individuals. The unsaved in v.14 and regenerate in verse 15.
The context of 1 Cor 2 is understanding "spiritual wisdom" (v. 6) the "hidden wisdom of God" (v. 7), the "deep things of God" (v. 10), and the "spiritual things the Holy Spirit teaches" (v. 13).
Obviously the lost person cannot understand these deeper things of God. That is what v. 14 is saying.
Obviously the lost person cannot understand these deeper things of God. That is what v. 14 is saying.
So your going to ignore the previous verses in this Chapter to protect your view. According to you they have nothing to do with verse 14 when in any book they would all be in the same paragraph..
It seems to me you are beating a dead horse here you just don't have a leg to stand on...
MB
It's truth is the deep things of God. Not total depravity or total inability
MB
Exactly.
The person in 1 Cor. 2:14 cannot receive, accept, the Gospel. Is that 'deep.'? It's thought of as foolishness. Would a saved person of any level of maturity regard the Gospel as foolishness? Why do I say the Gospel? Because 1:18 states that the message of the cross is considered by the lost as being foolishness even while perishing. You can certainly see the relationship between 1:18 and 2:14, can't you? The message of the cross is most certainly the Gospel. Don't you agree?
I may take a bit of a differing view on this, but I believe this Text does indeed teach that the natural man is totally unable to hear the spiritual messages of God, which includes the Gospel and is probably primarily referring to the Gospel.
Paul said he came speaking "not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit..." But the natural man cannot receive this teaching.
The question is, does this mean the natural man must be regenerated first to hear? Or does it mean he must merely be enlightened and illuminated to hear as the Arminian generally believes? Whether efficacious or prevenient, there is a forerunning grace that changes man's natural state and allow him to hear. To the calvinist this is regeneration which causes faith, to the arminian, this is a supernatural enlightenment which makes faith possible. Both ideas would change man from his natural state.
But I think the Text is clear, the natural man cannot receive the truths the Spirit revealed to Paul—total inability.
Paul said he came speaking "not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit..." But the natural man cannot receive this teaching.
The question is, does this mean the natural man must be regenerated first to hear? Or does it mean he must merely be enlightened and illuminated to hear as the Arminian generally believes? Whether efficacious or prevenient, there is a forerunning grace that changes man's natural state and allow him to hear. To the calvinist this is regeneration which causes faith, to the arminian, this is a supernatural enlightenment which makes faith possible. Both ideas would change man from his natural state.
But I think the Text is clear, the natural man cannot receive the truths the Spirit revealed to Paul—total inability.
Yes it is I take scripture literally for what it says and it says nothing about total depravity. Total depravity says man is unable to understand until he is saved first. Although scripture clearly says we must believe first in order to be saved.Which is it for you? did you believe first? or were you saved first?
MB
This 1 Cor. 2:14 person is spiritually dead since the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell within. This person has not been made spiritually alive and lives in ignorance and darkness. How much plainer can it be? To reject such clear biblical testimony is puzzling. You have a real antipathy toward Scripture. It is a wonder that you can accept Christ's vicarious atonement, the election of His own, along with their preservation, the Trinity, Christ's resurrection, reconciliation, justification and other cardinal truths of the Bible. These truths are just as clear and plain as the teaching of 1 Cor. 2:14, yet you rail against it.
It reminds me of something about 30 years ago. I wasn't going to a Calvinistic church per se, although some were no doubt Calvinistic. The Adult Sunday School teacher asked someone to read Romans 9 out loud. Let's call him Jay (I do forget his name). When Jay started reading he kept saying things such as "But it doesn't really mean what I'm reading. Er, ah, it can't mean what I..." He kept arguing with the biblical text. He just couldn't square it with his traditional background. MB you are another Jay.
It reminds me of something about 30 years ago. I wasn't going to a Calvinistic church per se, although some were no doubt Calvinistic. The Adult Sunday School teacher asked someone to read Romans 9 out loud. Let's call him Jay (I do forget his name). When Jay started reading he kept saying things such as "But it doesn't really mean what I'm reading. Er, ah, it can't mean what I..." He kept arguing with the biblical text. He just couldn't square it with his traditional background. MB you are another Jay.
"Official" definition of Total Depravity is that it is impossible for man to choose or desire God. The solution is they must be regenerated first before they can choose God.
That is the solution, according to the rest of the TULIP. But the T, in and of itself, merely states impossibility for the natural man, which Scripture supports. Paul made it clear that was his position. My contention would be that a man undergoing God's drawing is no longer natural. He is under the influence of the supernatural and seeing and hearing things he never could before. Arminians and Calvinists will debate whether he can still reject faith after that.
The thing is if man can't understand at least the gospel or the milk of the word then the natural man cannot believe and cannot be saved. So even if the Holy Spirit is working to save the man he still cannot be saved unless he is made to understand. Which is a load of man made bull. No where in scripture does it ever say man has to be saved in order to understand the gospel message. Therefore there is no total depravity. Paul even says that Gentiles will here it.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
I can only agree that man in his natural state is a sinner no doubt. Yet he can hear.
MB
Man in his natural state is without the Holy Spirit and in opposition to God. He cannot understand, he cannot accept or receive the things of God because he considers them foolishness. He is not merely an immature believer who needs milk. Even an immature believer has the Holy Spirit. Many followed Christ and were called disciples in the larger sense (not the 12 minus 1). But many of these did not believe because of their stony hearts. "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" said many disciples in John 6:60. And in verse 66 many of them "turned back and no longer followed him."
Think about the parables. Even the core group of disciples didn't know what he was talking about. Then went to Jesus after wards and had to have these parables explained to them. A lot of people falsely think that the parables that Jesus spoke made it easier for the common people to understand. No, quite the contrary. The privilege of understanding the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven was given to his immediate disciples --not the crowds. Jesus said that though they (the crowds) had eyes, they could not see. Though they had ears they couldn't hear. If they did have full use of those faculties they would have turned and been forgiven. But the Lord did not will that.
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