1 John 2:1-2

[AustinC]

For someone who likes to use the term "Comparing Scripture with Scripture," you sure do use a lot of extra-biblical sources. UGH! Typical of the Calvinist set. Also, the interpretation of Scripture that you seem to draw isn't necessarily the same one that others come to COMPARING SCRIPTURE with Scripture. We all are aware that not ALL will come Christ, yet, if Christ didn't die for ALL, then the Bible is a lie, and his death is of none effect.

Has God fully identified ALL who will believe, before they ever believe?

Did Jesus fully pay for ALL who would believe?

The answer is YES.

Where we differ is: You seem to think God is clueless to who will believe and thus Jesus had to shed his blood for all the damned as well as the redeemed.
I think God is fully Sovereign and knew, before the foundation of the world, who will believe and thus Jesus shed his blood only for those who would believe. Jesus blood was not wasted.

There is really only two views.
1) Universalism
2) Limited Atonement

 

[Van]

Lets look at how John uses the Greek word translated "world."

John 13:1 (NASB)
Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus, knowing that His hour had come that He would depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.​

According to the above bogus claim, Christ's own were in the earth, which is bogus. But consider Jesus knew He would depart from being with humanity, having loved His own who were part of humanity.

John 12:31 (NASB)
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.​

A more literal translation would read, Now judgement is of this fallen humanity, now the leader of fallen humanity will be cast out, Here we see fallen humanity has been judged, but when Christ was crucified (lifted up verse 32) He provided an opportunity (drawing) for all who believe. Thus while we have the Light, we are to believe the Light. Satan is cast outside of those placed within Christ's spiritual body and indwelt.

1John 5:19 (NASB)
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.​

A more literal translation would read, "We are aware that we are from God, and the whole of fallen humanity is lying in wickedness. Obviously those who have been born anew and are in Christ are outside of wickedness.

John 15:18 (NASB)
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.​

Obviously fallen humanity is in view.

John 1:29
The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!​

Finally, and once more John is using "world" to refer to fallen humanity.

Bottom line: If we a present a more literal translation, it would read:
and He is the means of reconciliation concerning the sins of us, yet not only concerning ours but also concerning the whole of humanity.

 

[Silverhair]

Has God fully identified ALL who will believe, before they ever believe?

Did Jesus fully pay for ALL who would believe?

The answer is YES.

Where we differ is: You seem to think God is clueless to who will believe and thus Jesus had to shed his blood for all the damned as well as the redeemed.
I think God is fully Sovereign and knew, before the foundation of the world, who will believe and thus Jesus shed his blood only for those who would believe. Jesus blood was not wasted.

There is really only two views.
1) Universalism
2) Limited Atonement

Most of us see God as desiring all to be saved 1Timothy 2:3-4 and He actually showed His love for the world when He came to save us John 3:14-18. But man is sinful Romans 3:23 and this condemns all of us Romans 6:23 but God knew this and provided a way for man to escape, Christ Jesus John 1:29. God has provided the means to know Him Romans 1:20 and to know that we are sinners John 16:8. That is why we preach the gospel the power of God for salvation for all who believe Romans 1:16. Although Christ came to be a ransom for all 1Timothy 2:5-6 not all will accept Him. Christ covered the sin debt for all as only an infinite God could do 1John 2:2.
God has provided the means of salvation Romans 3:21-26. God is trustworthy and will save those that call on Him Romans 10:13 having heard and believed the gospel message Ephesians 1:13.

We can rest assured that God loves all of His creation and wants all to be saved having provided the means for that to happen.
“The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel)
"Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me" (Luther).

 

[Silverhair]

Me. Throw "your Bible"

away.

What and then trust in those man made documents that you trust in? I would suggest that you trust in your bible more and less in those men that you do now.

 

[AustinC]

Most of us see God as desiring all to be saved 1Timothy 2:3-4 and He actually showed His love for the world when He came to save us John 3:14-18. But man is sinful Romans 3:23 and this condemns all of us Romans 6:23 but God knew this and provided a way for man to escape, Christ Jesus John 1:29. God has provided the means to know Him Romans 1:20 and to know that we are sinners John 16:8. That is why we preach the gospel the power of God for salvation for all who believe Romans 1:16. Although Christ came to be a ransom for all 1Timothy 2:5-6 not all will accept Him. Christ covered the sin debt for all as only an infinite God could do 1John 2:2.
God has provided the means of salvation Romans 3:21-26. God is trustworthy and will save those that call on Him Romans 10:13 having heard and believed the gospel message Ephesians 1:13.

We can rest assured that God loves all of His creation and wants all to be saved having provided the means for that to happen.
“The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel)
"Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me" (Luther).

Yet, in your version, God fails miserably.

 

[Alan Gross]

For someone who likes to use the term "Comparing Scripture with Scripture," you sure do use a lot of extra-biblical sources. UGH! Typical of the Calvinist set. Also, the interpretation of Scripture that you seem to draw isn't necessarily the same one that others come to COMPARING SCRIPTURE with Scripture. We all are aware that not ALL will come Christ, yet, if Christ didn't die for ALL, then the Bible is a lie, and his death is of none effect.

Your position is a Blasphemous rail against the Nature and Justice of God.

 

[Alan Gross]

What and then trust in those man made documents that you trust in? I would suggest that you trust in your bible more and less in those men that you do now.

You can't even be force feed The Truth,
of the slightest.

Wise and prudent as they come.

 

[Silverhair]

Yet, in your version, God fails miserably.

So you do not believe the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

You can't even be force feed The Truth,
of the slightest.

Wise and prudent as they come.

The truth is the bible not what you seem to think you are getting from those men. Why do you continue to deny scripture and instead trust what some man tells you that you should believe about scripture?

 

[kyredneck]

I cannot, off the top of my head, reproduce his argument

...lol, and it doesn't get any better the older we get...

 

[AVL1984]

Your position is a Blasphemous rail against the Nature and Justice of God.

Far from it. And you, sir, are bloviating. Prove it's blasphemous instead of just making a hit-and-run statement.

 

[JD731]

I know you want the text to say that Christ propitiated God towards everyone, but I'm afraid it doesn't. Nor does it say that the earth sinned. The Bible does say that God placed a curse upon the earth because of sin. I am suggesting that Christ removed that curse.

It is interesting to me what God said about the curse before the flood, because of sin. He said this:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I am not sure how much pain and hardship this curse on the ground caused, but it must have been severe. Here is some commentary on it 600 years before the flood.

Gen 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.
30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:

I am not sure how Noah would relieve the pressures of the curse, but I did read this when he landing on this side of the waters.

15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

I cannot find anything in prophesy that God is planning to remove a curse on the ground in the future. Of course, if there were no curse on the ground there would be none to remove.

I admit that I may not have the full picture and am in a learning mode if someone has more light on the subject of the curse and the ground.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@JD731, read Romans 8:21 and Revelation 22:3.

 

[Van]

Did you see where a post says read this verse or that verse with explanation as to how the verse denies Jesus is the means of salvation of the whole of humanity? All these Falseology posts are for the purpose of obfuscation.

1 John 2:2 (Literal Translation) and He is the means of reconciliation concerning the sins of us, yet not only concerning ours but also concerning the whole of humanity.

 

[Alan Gross]

Your position is a Blasphemous rail against the Nature and Justice of God.

The truth is the bible not what you seem to think you are getting from those men. Why do you continue to deny scripture and instead trust what some man tells you that you should believe about scripture?

To hold to having God send His Son to die for souls that are also punished in Hell is accusing God of Blasphemous Double Jeopardy.

Saved individuals are to have a teachable Spirit and one that repents of Blasphemous charges against a Holy God.

 

[Alan Gross]

Far from it. And you, sir, are bloviating. Prove it's blasphemous instead of just making a hit-and-run statement.

To hold to having God send His Son to die for souls that are also punished in Hell is accusing God of Blasphemous Double Jeopardy.

Saved individuals are to have a teachable Spirit and one that repents of Blasphemous charges against a Holy God.

 

[Silverhair]

To hold to having God send His Son to die for souls that are also punished in Hell is accusing God of Blasphemous Double Jeopardy.

Saved individuals are to have a teachable Spirit and one that repents of Blasphemous charges against a Holy God.

Well since that bible does not teach such a thing as "God sending His Son to die for souls that are also punished in Hell" you must be getting that idea from all the books you read from all those calvinist theologians you keep quoting. I keep telling you to just believe the bible but you insist on trusting those men and there in lays your problem.

 

[Silverhair]

Alan it is time for you to stop with the huff and puff. Deal with what the bible says not with what you think the bible says.

 

[Alan Gross]

Well since that bible does not teach such a thing as "God sending His Son to die for souls that are also punished in Hell" you must be getting that idea from all the books you read from all those calvinist theologians you keep quoting. I keep telling you to just believe the bible but you insist on trusting those men and there in lays your problem.

I'm not interested in arguing 'religion',
without God, without Christ and without Hope.

"ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,

having no hope,

and without God in the world:"

Have you added some more "ways of salvation",
to your list?

None of them would have been there 50 years ago.

Keep adding until you get it right.

Religion sends people to Hell.

And they have, "ASSURANCE";

Matthew 7:21, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not interested in arguing 'religion',
without God, without Christ and without Hope.

"ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,

having no hope,

and without God in the world:"

Have you added some more "ways of salvation",
to your list?

None of them would have been there 50 years ago.

Keep adding until you get it right.

Religion sends people to Hell.

And they have, "ASSURANCE";

Matthew 7:21, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,

I do not have to add extra ways as I just go by what the bible says and that without alterations. You seem to be the one that will not trust what the bible says so that is why I keep telling you to just trust the bible and not those other books you keep pointing us to.