1 John 2:2 and the 'sins of the world.'

quote:
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1John 4
14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
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I am always interested in the fact that we "Accuse" Calvinists of doing and saying the very things that JohnP says. Often they will 'deny it' -- but JohnP will boldly jump off any cliff you point to "all for Calvinism".

What a great guy!!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob. The full eight cools + 1.

And I have seen and testify that the Son has failed.
I must admit that the things I write are sometimes a bit odd even to me. I thought you could make so much more out of this.

You do raise me up Bob. I don't think I've explained how I arrive at the truth. I read what you say and believe the opposite. I then listen to the things that cause you the most mirth and accept those as a way of fine tuning my beliefs.

Accuse of believing is a strange idea to apply to anothers beliefs. You sound like the thought police.

As I said you Arminians do a fine job in keeping me in the truth.

Lemming like but I do answer your questions and I don't twist your words except when they need to get their shape back. Did Jesus save the world Bob boy? If He did then we are all home and dry ain't we? If He didn't then He is not the Saviour of the world is He? Or is that too complicatingly simple? :cooler: HaHa!

What a nice thing to say! Thanks man. And you have my promise, God willing, that I shall try my very best to be a much grater guy in the future.

john.

 

Good job Whetstone.

 

No John, Christ NEVER fails, but Calvinists like yourself fail by not accepting the plain teachimgs of the Word of God, but are content to twist their meanings to support your heretical doctrines.

 

No Whetstone, we have NO problems with what the Truth of Scriprure teaches, but do have a big problem with the lies that Calvinism says about what the Bible says. If "For God so loved the world", does not mean just that, then you can only accept any other interpretation because you are deceived into believing that Scripture supports your heresies. Calvinsts are guilty of corrupting what Scripture says in many places. Like the word "world in John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; "all" in places like 1 Timothy 2:4; "any", like in 2 Peter 3:9; "bought" in 2 Peter 2:1. In each and every case it clearly shows that Jesus' death is for the whole world without exception, but because of the heresy of Limited Atonement, Calvinists cannot admit any of these verses as they stand, since their theology would then be destroyed. Rather than accept the Truth, they will corrupt the meaning to suit their nonsense, and then complain about the Roman Cathoilcs, etc, about their doctrine of Salvation, where in reality the Calvinists own teaching on the Atonement and Salvartion is no better, since it is what man believes, and NOT what Scripture teaches.

 

Hello icthus.

I can understand that you would have problems with the things I say, even I have problems with the things I say but why do you just attack me like that without any refutation of what I said? Why do you do that?

Content I am with the meaning of Saviour man.

I wished you Arminians would make up your minds. To some I'm a "What a great guy!!" and to you I'm a heretic. Speak to me icthus tell me where I err not that I err.

Hello Dan.

I hope you don't include the Jew in the word 'world'. They would be most upset.

For God so loved the world that He sent His only Son to cut off Israel for it! Or is that a bit harsh?
ISA 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

john.

 

True but it does not make JohnP's point.

The fact that Christ saves and as THE SAVIOR of the WORLD -- DIED for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD -- does not mean that the WHOLE World will choose to accept that SALVATION.

If a man builds a house with rooms for 20 street people and offers EACH of them a room - but only 10 accept -- the house STILL has 20 rooms!!

This is the obvious point that Calvinism can not fathom!

If 6.5 Billion vaccines are put out on the market "for free" against the flu - and the whole world was going to get the flu - but only 1 billion took the vaccine - it does not alter the fact that the 6.5 billion were made freely available to ALL!!

Calvnism is desperate to deny the obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan says:
The fact that Christ saves and as THE SAVIOR of the WORLD -- DIED for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD -- does not mean that the WHOLE World will choose to accept that SALVATION.

I ask:
So is Christ a failure?

 

Hello Bob.

What? That Saviour means Saviour to a Calvinist but not to an Arminian and you are cheeky to try it on.
But if you do not accept worldy words, so to speak , how are you going to accept spiritual ones?

Since in your world, so to speak, Saviour has the meaning of not Saviour but enabler or a ready hand but not Saviour.

Don't tell me not to twist words and meanings what does Saviour mean? What does cursed by God mean? Try redeemed, atoned for, saved, loved with an everlasting love, scapegoat.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
He has prepared the house to accommadate all His chosen and each and every room will be occupied by the one assigned to that room from before the creation of the universe.
No offer is made to many but God opens each heart as He so chooses and He hardens whoever He wants to.
Your analogies are Arminian.

john.

 

"Calvinism says there were particular and specific ones that have been redeemed and each and every one shall certainly be saved. He shall save His peopel from their sins. (grace)"

Easy for the "saved" ones to say. Why worry about the lost eh? I'm saved, that's all that matters. Many Calvinists come across as pompous turds with no idea of God's love. They talk a big game about God's wrath (which no Arminian denies by the way), but they "lack" in the love department.

It seems like Calvinists say to God, "how could you love and save that person, you're a God of wrath"...and God replies TO the Calvinist "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy".

Thankfully, not all Calvinists are like this. Some actually care about people.

BTW, so as not to be a "troll" I shall address the issue of the OP. Saviour of the world means exactly that. He is the one given by God to be the Saviour, there is no other. In order to be saved, one has to believe in the Saviour. If you are drowning a man who wishes to save you would be your saviour, but it is up to you to let him save you.

1 Timothy 4:9-11 with verse numbers because Johnp is just so picky about that:

(9)This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. (10)For to this end we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe. (11)These things command and teach.

 

Hello KJ.

Yes it is. Easy street. It's hardly our fault we were saved. You really can't blame us for who resists His will. We must suffer salvation whether we like it or not.

Brother Jonah could be the man you speak of. See? We don't change do we? So what? Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

JAS 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?

You have met Brother Jonah I take it? Now there was a miserable Calvinist if ever there was one. Niniveh had a lucky escape because God was for them even if Jonah was not.

And to believe He is your Saviour one must believe He has saved you.

Rescuer not saviour until saved. If you reach out your hand you are both saviours. Co-saviours. Co-redeemers.

That's ok but how do we do that because we are not drowning but dead.

john.

 

quote:
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In order to be saved, one has to believe in the Saviour.
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Hence the problem in Calvinism.

In Calvinism "God does NOT LOVE YOU" in fact God "so hates the many" of Matt 7 and YOU have no clue as to whether you are in the MANY or not. All you know for sure is that statistically it is more likely you ARE AMONG the MANY than the few.

But then if you happen to THINK your saved -- (and are a 5 point calvinist) you STILL DON't KNOW if God LOVES YOU - until you SEE that you do not "FAIL to PERSEVERE" ten years from now! Beacause if you DONT PERSEVER ten years from today - why then - God never did love you no matter "what you think" today.

And so -- Calvinism's problems merely multiply just because it refused to accept the Word of God that said "GOD SO LOVED the WORLD ... yes REALLY!".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

You put this first so is there a 'the problem' or do you mean what is written below.

Who is the 'you' that you mention? Have you ever looked at the doctrines of grace? It teaches of God that He would die for those that He loves and that love never fails. Those He has not chosen to love forever and ever can have no love to begin with. That is the essense of love, that it never fails. It does not fail for those He has chosen it is not given to those whose destiny is Hell, forever in torment.
It has nothing to do with what we like but it is to do with what is.

It has to do with what is not what we want it to be. It has nothing to do with numbers but if numbers matter then the promise to us is that the number saved will be uncountable by us.
REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

So where did you learn your Calvinism from Bob?

But we do have a clue Bob. Jesus gave a clue. He said that anyone who believes is saved and we believe that. That is what faith is, believing not doubting. How can you say we can't know for sure when Jesus tells us we are? What is your game? Your doctrine leaves you in fear not knowing if you have made the grade or whether you will stay the course. God loves His children and tells them
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
I tell you the truth Jesus says. What truth? Whoever believes has. Has what? Everlasting life. End of story. Cracked it. And you try to tell me that I can't know for sure for sure you don't believe what Jesus says.

Did He not know He was creating the "...the many" of Matt 7 to go to Hell?
God so loved the world that He sent His only Son to cut off Israel for it.

john.

 

"Those who CLING to Idols forfeit the GRACE that COULD be THEIRS" NIV

The choice of man to reject light though ENABLED to accept - speaks to the forfeit of GRACE THAT COULD BE THEIRS!!

Indeed they "REJECT God's PURPOSE for them"

In Christ,

Bob

 

After Calvinists here say "God hates hates hates" (and that is a quote of THEM) they then go into shell-gaming as JohnP does above saying that IF you discover that Calvinism DOES SAY THAT about the MANY of Matt 7 then "Where did you get your Calvinism"??

Answer! - This board!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Brother Wheststone:

The most biblically logical interpretation I have seen offered on 1 John 2:2 was in an article by elders David and Wilford Pyles. Here is a portion of the article,

") I John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. - It might be said that though the term world does not necessarily refer to all mankind, the more emphatic expression whole world does.

However, the expression whole world is also used in scriptures where reference cannot be to all mankind. In this same epistle it is said in 5:19, And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. Clearly, whole world does not include those that are of God. The expression is also used in a limited sense in Romans 1:8, where Paul says of the Roman church: ...your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Even were one to allow that whole world indeed refers to all mankind, then the verse vastly overstates the opposing position, for if propitiation has in fact been accomplished for all mankind, then one should firmly expect all mankind to be saved. A similar problem with this interpretation occurs when the verse is compared with Romans 3:25, where Paul says of Christ: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood... Since propitiation is claimed to be through faith, then propitiation for all must imply that all have faith. This is of course patently absurd (II Thessalonians 3:2).

We prefer to explain this verse thus: By the statement, And he is the propitiation for our sins, John means that Christ is the sole source of propitiation for the sins of John's own people, the Jews. Then by the statement, and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world, John presents Christ as being the sole source of propitiation to the Gentiles also. Hence, whole world has the same significance as world in John 3:16. The only inference that may be drawn as to the number of persons benefiting from the propitiation is that this number includes both Jews and Gentiles.

The intent of the verse is to assert the exclusiveness of the source of propitiation - not the extent of its application. It may be truthfully said that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world in the sense that there is no other source in this world through which propitiation can be accomplished. For example, if one were to state that a particular utility were the supplier of natural gas to a whole community, this statement would not imply that everyone in the community purchased natural gas; rather, it would imply that of those purchasing natural gas, all must have done so from this particular utility. Similarly, Christ is the sole supplier of propitiation for sins, though not all humanity will be supplied with such propitiation. " http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/partaton.html


I have linked the entire article entitled, "A DEFENSE OF THE DOCTRINE OF
SPECIAL ATONEMENT " if you desire to read it. It is really throgh provoking! God bless!

Brother Joe

 

You put this first so is there a 'the problem' or do you mean what is written below.

Who is the 'you' that you mention? Have you ever looked at the doctrines of grace? It teaches of God that He would die for those that He loves and that love never fails. Those He has not chosen to love forever and ever can have no love to begin with. That is the essense of love, that it never fails. It does not fail for those He has chosen it is not given to those whose destiny is Hell, forever in torment.
It has nothing to do with what we like but it is to do with what is.
</font>[/QUOTE]I like this guy!!!!

I may not agree with every word you say johnp. But you do stick with the Word. I'll give you that...and you do show a heart that would change if shown from Gods Word.

Many do not do this...but rather preach mans logic with little or no Bible support, or overlook many passages. This is not speaking AT anyone in this forum. : )

This again is not saying Johnp is right...a few times he even said he didn't understand what he wrote. But he seems to uphold the Word...even with all the attacks.

Anyway...hang in there. Keep holding up Gods Word and do not give in to mans logic.

ok..i'm back to work...

In Christ...James

 

NOT GRACE, but ATONEMENT under GRACE! Jesus' atonement for sin makes man's redemption universally possible, though not guaranteed, because man must have faith in the redeemer in order to receive redemption (salvation).