1 John 2:2

[Iconoclast]

God's will is not always accomplished because of the sinfulness of mankind.

[QUOTE35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

][/QUOTE]

I will believe Dan4 on this one.


God's will is always done.
If God willed all men without exception to be saved,all men would be saved.
The fact that he tells many to depart indicates he does not will all to be saved

 

[DHK]

God's will is always done.
If God willed all men without exception to be saved,all men would be saved.
The fact that he tells many to depart indicates he does not will all to be saved

God's will is not always done.
God's will was not done when two terrorists crashed planes into the WTC.
That was not God's will.
It is not God's will for young girls to be raped and have abortions.
For you to claim as much is to attribute evil to God and make him the author of all such evil.

God's will is not done in your life every time you sin. And you do sin, for the Bible says you do. And yet we are to pray: "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." But we know that no matter how hard we try His will, will never be done as it is done in heaven. It is only a goal that we can work toward.

God's will does not get done. It does not get done because of the depravity and frailty of the human heart. It does not get done because God himself has given man a mind, a will to choose to do God's will or not to do God's will.

 

[Rippon]

for he is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people of all the world of all time. And all who believe in him shall have all their sins forgiven: past, present, and future.

The first part is false --the second part is true.

It is a Biblical truth which you have no argument against.

I have been patiently attempting to explain the truth to you for years and you insist on having none of it --don't try and say I have had no argument against your personal philosophy.

 

[Iconoclast]

God's will is not always done.
God's will was not done when two terrorists crashed planes into the WTC.
That was not God's will.
It is not God's will for young girls to be raped and have abortions.
For you to claim as much is to attribute evil to God and make him the author of all such evil.

God's will is not done in your life every time you sin. And you do sin, for the Bible says you do. And yet we are to pray: "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." But we know that no matter how hard we try His will, will never be done as it is done in heaven. It is only a goal that we can work toward.

God's will does not get done. It does not get done because of the depravity and frailty of the human heart. It does not get done because God himself has given man a mind, a will to choose to do God's will or not to do God's will.

In Isa 10 God allowed the assyrians to come against the people of God notice in verse 5... They were used of God to punish the nation,later on they were punished.
Again you describe a God who is not in control of all things.The God of the bible is.

1Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;

2To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!

3And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?

4Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

5O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

6I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

7Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

8For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?

9Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?

10As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;

11Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?

12Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

13For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:

14And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

15Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

16Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.

17And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

18And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.

19And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

20And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

23For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

6Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Your position on 1Jn2;2 denys the actual substitutionary atonement,and makes the word propitiation void of its biblically intended meaning. Your view followed through using biblical language leads to universalism,which you yourself would agree is heretical.
I am glad that the atonement is able to save to the uttermost,yes that is a wonderful teaching.

Jesus paid for each and every sin of actual persons....not sin generically. He died in place of His people as He covenanted to do.

 

[DHK]

Your position on 1Jn2;2 denys the actual substitutionary atonement,and makes the word propitiation void of its biblically intended meaning.

Not true. I quote the verse word for word, and then you argue against it. Who, therefore are you arguing against? Not me.

I am glad that the atonement is able to save to the uttermost,yes that is a wonderful teaching.

Then we all ought to believe it.

Jesus paid for each and every sin of actual persons....not sin generically. He died in place of His people as He covenanted to do.

Show me the words of Jesus Himself where he indicated that he was dying only for the Jews. You are reading into the Scriptures that which is not there.
The gospels do not teach that.
Acts does not teach that.
The Epistles do not teach that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not true. I quote the verse word for word, and then you argue against it. Who, therefore are you arguing against? Not me.

Then we all ought to believe it.

Show me the words of Jesus Himself where he indicated that he was dying only for the Jews. You are reading into the Scriptures that which is not there.
The gospels do not teach that.
Acts does not teach that.
The Epistles do not teach that.

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

There are texts everywhere...notice he accomplished redemption he did not just make a salvation possible. It was a definate atonement.

 

[jbh28]

Not true. I quote the verse word for word, and then you argue against it. Who, therefore are you arguing against? Not me.

Actually you didn't quote it "word for word" as you claim.

- your version "for he is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people of all the world of all time"

- Bible = "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

slight different there. So is not true to say somebody is arguing against the Scripture there. They are arguing with you.


Show me the words of Jesus Himself where he indicated that he was dying only for the Jews.[/quote]um...who teaches that? If that was the case, I believe all of us would have a problem. If you mean did Jesus came to die for the sheep? "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep are those that in the end are saved (Matthew 25).

 

[DHK]

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

The above is John 10:11. Let's look at verse 9 and 10.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:9-10)
--The only way a person becomes a sheep is to believe on Christ, and Christ gives that person eternal life. Take the passage in its full context. He must enter through the door. He must make that decision of his own will. Christ must open the door for him. But he is the one that must of his own will desire to go in.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

These are the words of Paul to the elders of the Ephesian church.
Christ shed his blood for all who believe in him and consequently become part of his church. Isn't that the meaning here?

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

IOW, Christ became man that he could die for the sins of all mankind. The expression that he took upon himself the seed of Abraham simply refers to the incarnation: deity putting on flesh.

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Just like 1John 2:2 He obtained eternal redemption for us and for the whole world. This is taking the totality of Scripture into consideration. The author of Hebrews uses "us" including himself, but also including those that he is writing to. In other words it is generic--including all who believe on him and have found redemption through him.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The ones that are sanctified are the ones that have believed out of their own free will.
The Holy Ghost is a witness to us who have believed. We believed because we made the choice to believe.
Verses 16 and 17 are a quote from the OT and are prophetic looking forward to the MK (or end of the Trib) when the nation of Israel will look to Christ as their Messiah and be saved (Rom.11:22).

There are texts everywhere...notice he accomplished redemption he did not just make a salvation possible. It was a definate atonement.

Yes, he accomplished redemption.
Yes, he made salvation possible.
Yes, it was a definite atonement. It was definite in that it was specific, real, historic, but it was also sufficient in that it sufficiently made the payment for all the sins of the world. It satisfied the demands of God for all people, that whosoever would believe on him should be saved.
http://baptistboard.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1650174

 

[DHK]

Show me the words of Jesus Himself where he indicated that he was dying only for the Jews.

um...who teaches that? If that was the case, I believe all of us would have a problem. If you mean did Jesus came to die for the sheep? "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep are those that in the end are saved (Matthew 25).

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Matthew 25:32)
The judgment of the nations has nothing to do with this age of grace, with our salvation, with those that believe today as being sheep. To use that portion of Scripture to prove your point is to rip Scripture right out of its context.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

But he didn't show that did he? He simply stated an opinion without backing it up. Just because the name is well known doesn't make the opinion correct.

What is God's will?
(God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

God's will is that all men will be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. That is what it says, and that is what it means. It is written very clearly.

Let me give you an example before I go on.
What is my will as a father?
My will is that all my children go into full time service for the Lord.
Will that happen?
No. They have a free will which they were born with. They cannot be forced to do the work of the Lord full time. They must choose of their own free will to go into the ministry. And before that they must choose to be saved. They must choose Christ. I cannot force any of this on them. It is nevertheless my will that they be saved and serve the Lord full time.

What happened?
It looks like only one of them will be going into the Lord's work full time.
Did I fail? No, I don't think so. They have a free will and will choose to serve God in other capacities of their lives.

Did God fail?
No, God never fails. He created man in the image and likeness of Himself, which meant giving man a free will to choose good and evil; to choose Christ or reject Him. He is not going to force man into salvation. Man, of his own free will, must choose Christ.

God is willing that all men should be saved, but not all will be saved?
Why? Because of the depravity of the human heart. Man rebels against God, and is free to tell God, NO. And that is what happens, despite what God's will is. God's will is not always accomplished because of the sinfulness of mankind.

You know that and I know that.
"on earth as it is in heaven."
The problem is that oft times you do not do God's will on earth as it is done in heaven. Am I correct?
God's will is not done, not even in your own life. Why would you expect it to be done in the lives of the unsaved?

Here is a good answer to that passage:

1 Timothy 2:4
ESV1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Here the "plain meaning" of the text would appear to support opponents of Calvinism. Admittedly, the burden of proof in this case rests with us.

The reformed interpretation of this verse is that "all people" refers to "all kinds of people" meaning without regard for social status, ethnicity, gender, etc. How do we support such an interpretation? Two reasons: first, Paul has a pattern of using the term this way; and secondly, to believe otherwise would require us to believe that Jesus tries and fails to save.

Let's look at Paul's pattern. Here we see it in Titus 2-3 (emphasis added)

ESVTitus 2: 2 Older men are to be sober-minded, ...
3 Older women likewise are to be...
4 and so train the young women to ...
6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be ...
9 Slaves are to be ...
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, ...
3:1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities,

Here we clearly see Paul using all people as all kinds of people. It us understandable to see this kind of language in a culture that is so divided by ethnicity, social/economic status, gender, etc. Let's look for more examples since one example is hardly a pattern.

NASBActs 22:15 'For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.

Here Luke records Paul's account of Ananias' charge to him. Can "all men" here mean every single person everywhere? Or does it make more sense for this to mean men of every tribe and nation? There are other places where Paul speaks in kinds or categories of people with references to "all."

ESVColossians 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

ESVGalatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Allegations against Paul take a similar form. In Acts 21:28 is Paul being accused of preaching to every single individual person?

NASBActs 21:28 crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people, and the Law, and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."

Context

In 1 Timothy 2, is there any reason to see Paul as talking about kinds or categories of people? Let's look at the context.

ESV1 Timothy 2:1-4 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now we need to ask ourselves, is Paul urging Timothy to pray for every single person in the world? Every single person in the city of Ephesus? Note what Paul says next, this is the key: "for kings and all who are in high positions." Persecuted Christians here are urged to include kings and high officials (their chief persecutors) in their prayers--a category of people to be included rather than excluded.

More disturbing is the very idea that Jesus tries and fails to save. As James White states in a chapter titled "The Perfect Work of Calvary" in The Potter's Freedom:

In its simplest terms the Reformed belief is this: Christ's death saves sinners. It does not make the salvation of sinners a mere possibility. It does not provide a theoretical atonement. It requires no additions, whether they be the meritorious works of me or the autonomous act of faith flowing from a "free will." Christ's death saves every single person that it was intended to save.1

Can you read Jesus' words in John 6 and come to any other conclusion? Where is there room for failure?

ESVJohn 6:37-40 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

To sum up, in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 we have Paul encouraging Timothy to include the kings and high officials in his (and the church he oversees) prayers. God will draw His elect from among all people, and will fail to save none of them.

Link: http://www.objectivegospel.org/reformed/BigThree.shtml

 

[jbh28]

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Matthew 25:32)
The judgment of the nations has nothing to do with this age of grace, with our salvation, with those that believe today as being sheep. To use that portion of Scripture to prove your point is to rip Scripture right out of its context.

First, way to ignore my pointing out your dishonesty. Care to address your changing the words of Scripture and calling your words Scripture? Or are you just going to ignore that? Should I remind you?

- your version "for he is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people of all the world of all time"

- Bible = "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

of which you stated...

Not true. I quote the verse word for word, and then you argue against it. Who, therefore are you arguing against? Not me.

Secondly, I didn't take anything out of context. Go read again. I was showing who the Bible speaks about in reference to sheep. I know exactly what Matthew 25 is speaking about, specifically in verses 31-46. The passage is showing how Jesus will separate the sheep(saved) and the goats(unsaved). Its a judgment of people and not nations.

And in all that, you as usual either missed the point or ignored it because you didn't like the answer. (you know, like me pointing out how the Bible doesn't always use the word "world" to mean every single person [Luke 2:1])

 

[Rippon]

Life By His Death

Life By His Death is a brief treatment of the much longer work of John Owen (The Death Of Death In The Death Of Christ).

This shorter work was done by H.J.Appleby of Grace Publications Trust.

1. To whom is John writing? While it is true that the scriptures are for the whole church,yet many parts of it were written to special people.Such scriptures must be understood in the light of that fact. So we note:

a. That John was especially an apostle to Jews --Galatians 2:9.
b. He writes to those who have previously heard God's Word (1 John 2:7)and we know that God's Word was "to the Jew first".
c. The contrast that John makes between "us" and "the world" makes it clear that he writes to those who, like himself,were Jews.
d. John frequently cautions against false teachers --for example,1 John 2:19. Since he writes of such teachers "going out from us",he is obviously writing to fellow Jews.

Remembering the Jewish national hatred of all Gentiles, and the Jewsish opinion that their nation alone was God's people,what could be more natural than that John should emphasise that Jesus died,not for believing Jews alone,but for all believers throughout the whole world? we have another scripture expressing that same emphasis,in John 11:52. John is clearly concerned to prevent Jewish Christians falling into the old error of supposing they were the only Christians. John insists there are Gentile Christians,too, throughout the world. There is no doctrine here of Christ dying for all men. (p.65).

2. Why was John writing? he wrote in order to give comfort to believers troubled by their sins,so that they need not despair. "If any man sin..."From which we note:

a. Only believers would be comforted that Christ is their advocate.
b. Only believers can be comforted; unbelievers are under God's wrath.
c. John describes them as "little children...whose sins are forgiven".

In other words,John's aim only applies to believers. How can it be a comfort to believers to be told that Christ died for all and every man,many of whom are not saved? The verse gives no comfort,unless it is understood to mean Christ is the Saviour of all believers anywhere in the world. (p.66)

 

[DHK]

First, way to ignore my pointing out your dishonesty. Care to address your changing the words of Scripture and calling your words Scripture? Or are you just going to ignore that? Should I remind you?

- your version "for he is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people of all the world of all time"

- Bible = "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

I answered this post. The KJV was honest in translating this verse. If you read it they put the words "the sins" in italics showing that that they were not in the originals. They did that because the statement makes better sense when they are included. I believe these scholarly people had better sense and education than you have to realize that the words belong in there as the object of the prepositional phrase in the first part of the verse which is implied in the second part of the verse. It is quite clear.

Thus my conclusion remains the same. Whether those two little words are left in or not, the meaning of the verse does not change. Your argument is not with me; it is with God.

Secondly, I didn't take anything out of context. Go read again. I was showing who the Bible speaks about in reference to sheep. I know exactly what Matthew 25 is speaking about, specifically in verses 31-46. The passage is showing how Jesus will separate the sheep(saved) and the goats(unsaved). Its a judgment of people and not nations.

I even quoted the passage for you and you still do not believe. It is a judgment of the nations.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
--When will Jesus COME in his glory, and when will he sit on the throne of His glory? This is at the beginning of the MK.
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Matthew 25:31-32)
--Again, take up your argument with God. IT clearly says nations. Why are you trying to change it to something it doesn't say. I take the Word a face value. Apparently you don't.

And in all that, you as usual either missed the point or ignored it because you didn't like the answer. (you know, like me pointing out how the Bible doesn't always use the word "world" to mean every single person [Luke 2:1])

Here is the point: I will even use a more modern translation for your sake:

and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2) ASV
--Christ is the propitiation for...the sins of the whole world.
Christ is the propitiation for...sins...for the whole world. Leave out certain phrases and get down to the meat of the matter and see that that is what it says. He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world--each and every person. No fact can be any clearer than this one.

 

[DHK]

2. Why was John writing? he wrote in order to give comfort to believers troubled by their sins,so that they need not despair. "If any man sin..."From which we note:

a. Only believers would be comforted that Christ is their advocate.

A believer becomes a believer by trusting Christ.

b. Only believers can be comforted; unbelievers are under God's wrath.

Even John himself said that they don't have to be under God's wrath:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

c. John describes them as "little children...whose sins are forgiven".

Their sins are forgiven when the trust Christ, thus he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world--not just for our sins.

In other words,John's aim only applies to believers. How can it be a comfort to believers to be told that Christ died for all and every man,many of whom are not saved? The verse gives no comfort,unless it is understood to mean Christ is the Saviour of all believers anywhere in the world. (p.66)

It gives great comfort not only to all believers, but to all who are potential believers. Thus he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Iconoclast]

The above is John 10:11. Let's look at verse 9 and 10.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:9-10)
--The only way a person becomes a sheep is to believe on Christ, and Christ gives that person eternal life. Take the passage in its full context. He must enter through the door. He must make that decision of his own will. Christ must open the door for him. But he is the one that must of his own will desire to go in.

These are the words of Paul to the elders of the Ephesian church.
Christ shed his blood for all who believe in him and consequently become part of his church. Isn't that the meaning here?

IOW, Christ became man that he could die for the sins of all mankind. The expression that he took upon himself the seed of Abraham simply refers to the incarnation: deity putting on flesh.

[/B]Just like 1John 2:2 He obtained eternal redemption for us and for the whole world. This is taking the totality of Scripture into consideration. The author of Hebrews uses "us" including himself, but also including those that he is writing to. In other words it is generic--including all who believe on him and have found redemption through him.

The ones that are sanctified are the ones that have believed out of their own free will.
The Holy Ghost is a witness to us who have believed. We believed because we made the choice to believe.
Verses 16 and 17 are a quote from the OT and are prophetic looking forward to the MK (or end of the Trib) when the nation of Israel will look to Christ as their Messiah and be saved (Rom.11:22).

Yes, he accomplished redemption.
Yes, he made salvation possible.
Yes, it was a definite atonement. It was definite in that it was specific, real, historic, but it was also sufficient in that it sufficiently made the payment for all the sins of the world. It satisfied the demands of God for all people, that whosoever would believe on him should be saved.
http://baptistboard.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1650174

DHK, thank you for your response, but lets look at what you say;

The only way a person becomes a sheep is to believe on Christ

No......the sheep are given by the Father to the Son in the covenant of Redemption......goats are not given. You can only believe if you are a sheep.
Jn 10:26....you believe not....BECAUSE....you are not MY Sheep.
This is the testimony of the same chapter,you cannot twist away from it.

next;

He must make that decision of his own will

The sheep are made willing in the day of His power,psalm110
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Again the scriptural testimony speaks of God's will not mans.
The golden calf of "free will" is not found here or anywhere else.

next;

Christ must open the door for him. But he is the one that must of his own will desire to go in.

this is semi pelagianism at best...a false theory.

Acts 20:28- He purchased the Church of God with His own blood. He died for the CHURCH, ....before they believed on Him....not consequently


next:

IOW, Christ became man that he could die for the sins of all mankind. The expression that he took upon himself the seed of Abraham simply refers to the incarnation: deity putting on flesh.

No ...wrong again! It does not say he died for the seed of Adam.[that would be all mankind] It says he died for the seed of Abraham...the elect. Gal.3:16-29
Jesus is the promised seed...singular.And the elect are In Union with Him by Spirit baptism. Just like when zacheus was saved,,,why did salvation come to his house;

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Only the elect sheep, the seed of abraham are lost and going to be found.
The goats are right where they should be.....lost and going to hell justly for their sins.

next;

B]Just like 1John 2:2 He obtained eternal redemption for us and for the whole world.

No. wrong once again...Hebrews 9:12 does not speak about the whole world.It speaks about the covenant children.
1 jN 2:2 just tells us they are scattered throughout the world,not just in Israel.51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

next;

The ones that are sanctified are the ones that have believed out of their own free will

You are the only one saying those who believe do so ...because of what you call......"free will'.... again the scripture never uses this term as you do.
The only language that sounds like this is one ,maybe two references to giving a freewill offering, that is an offering that was not required by the law, in the Ot.
There is no language ever used in any salvation context using that language, as it is a false philisophical idea.

 

[Rippon]

Life By His Death is a brief treatment of the much longer work of John Owen (The Death Of Death In The Death Of Christ).

This shorter work was done by H.J.Appleby of Grace Publications Trust.

1. To whom is John writing? While it is true that the scriptures are for the whole church,yet many parts of it were written to special people.Such scriptures must be understood in the light of that fact. So we note:

a. That John was especially an apostle to Jews --Galatians 2:9.
b. He writes to those who have previously heard God's Word (1 John 2:7)and we know that God's Word was "to the Jew first".
c. The contrast that John makes between "us" and "the world" makes it clear that he writes to those who, like himself,were Jews.
d. John frequently cautions against false teachers --for example,1 John 2:19. Since he writes of such teachers "going out from us",he is obviously writing to fellow Jews.

Remembering the Jewish national hatred of all Gentiles, and the Jewsish opinion that their nation alone was God's people,what could be more natural than that John should emphasise that Jesus died,not for believing Jews alone,but for all believers throughout the whole world? we have another scripture expressing that same emphasis,in John 11:52. John is clearly concerned to prevent Jewish Christians falling into the old error of supposing they were the only Christians. John insists there are Gentile Christians,too, throughout the world. There is no doctrine here of Christ dying for all men. (p.65).

2. Why was John writing? he wrote in order to give comfort to believers troubled by their sins,so that they need not despair. "If any man sin..."From which we note:

a. Only believers would be comforted that Christ is their advocate.
b. Only believers can be comforted; unbelievers are under God's wrath.
c. John describes them as "little children...whose sins are forgiven".

In other words,John's aim only applies to believers. How can it be a comfort to believers to be told that Christ died for all and every man,many of whom are not saved? The verse gives no comfort,unless it is understood to mean Christ is the Saviour of all believers anywhere in the world. (p.66)

Amen to the above. Biblical truth is distorted by many today and a good solid dose of Owen (with Appleby's help) is sorely needed.

 

[Van]

Four pages of Calvinists advocating Limited Atonement, i.e. 1 John 2:2 does not mean Jesus became the propitiation not only for us but also for the whole world. 1 John is addressed to believers (those whose sins have been forgiven 1 John 2:12, so the us is believers and the also refers to non-believers. Together the whole world. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29.

Calvinism simply rewrites verses or changes the meaning of world to pour mistaken doctrine into the text.

 

[Rippon]

Four pages of Calvinists advocating Limited Atonement,

A number of Arminians have gotten their shots in --you included.

i.e. 1 John 2:2 does not mean Jesus became the propitiation not only for us but also for the whole world. 1 John is addressed to believers (those whose sins have been forgiven 1 John 2:12, so the us is believers and the also refers to non-believers. Together the whole world. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29.

What constitutes propitiation Van? If one's sins have been propitiated and yet they never come to a saving knowledge of the Lord --their sins have not been propitiated. Flesh out your understanding of propitiation for us.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So, we haven't got enough to wonder, worry, fret and argue with one another about, now we're digging up nine-month-old threads to debate?

 

[Winman]

So, we haven't got enough to wonder, worry, fret and argue with one another about, now we're digging up nine-month-old threads to debate?

Nine months? This thread started in January 2007. :laugh: