1 John 5:7 KJV Is Original Scripture

[Yeshua1]

For reproving the works of darkness rather than supporting false teachings as the NASB does? No.

For learning from the KJV as wisdom comes from the Lord to discern good & evil by His words in the KJV? Yes.

Darkness as when the Nas correctly identified our great God and Savior as being Jesus, unlike the Kjv?

 

[Hark]

Darkness as when the Nas correctly identified our great God and Savior as being Jesus, unlike the Kjv?

KJV says the same thing but contenders wish to make a big deal about punctuations as if it did not.

Proof is on Who it is that is appearing which preceded the Great God & Our Saviour Jesus Christ. The Father is not appearing and so following the words of that verse; Great God is referring to Jesus Christ Who is the Only One that will be appearing as being our blessed hope per the subject matter of the verse.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; KJV

 

[Logos1560]

KJV says the same thing but contenders wish to make a big deal about punctuations as if it did not.

Would it be true that punctuation changes are not significant in all cases?

F. H. A. Scrivener asserted: “The case in which difference in punctuation involves difference of meaning cannot be thus summarily dismissed” (Authorized Edition, p. 82). David Norton maintained that punctuation does matter, that it is important, and that it “controls meaning” (Textual History of the KJB, pp. 149-150).

In at least some cases and likely in many cases, a difference in punctuation can affect the meaning and interpretation of a verse or a sentence, which would make these changes significant. The moving of a comma or introduction of a comma can make a difference in the meaning of a sentence, preventing misunderstanding or perhaps sometimes contributing to possible misunderstanding.

In one example at Luke 23:32, commas, not found in the 1611 edition, was added after the word “other” and after “malefactor” to remove the possibility of it being understood to suggest that Jesus was also a malefactor. Donald Brake maintained that “a missing comma causes some ambiguity in Luke 23:32” and that “a comma belongs after ‘two other,’ perhaps clarifying that only two of the three parties present were malefactors” (Visual History of the KJB, p. 157). These commas at Luke 23:32 may have been first added in Edinburgh KJV editions in the 1780’s and adopted in Oxford, Cambridge, and London editions after 1800. Scrivener could not find the introduction of the comma at Luke 23:32 earlier than a KJV edition printed in 1817, but he did not consider or check editions printed in Edinburgh (Authorized Edition, p. 87).

In another example a comma in the 1611 edition at 2 Corinthians 5:2 [“grone earnestly, desiring”] is moved and placed after the word “groan.” Thus, the adverb “earnestly” is made to modify the word “desiring” instead of modifying the verb “groan” as it would in the 1611 edition. In his anniversary essay in Oxford’s 2010 reprint of the 1611, Gordon Campbell acknowledged that at 2 Corinthians 5:2 “the shifting of the comma changes the meaning, because the adverb ‘earnestly’ modifies ‘desiring’ instead of ‘groan’.”

At Numbers 31:50, a comma is missing in the 1611 edition after “gold”, which would result in it modifying the word chain [“of jewels of golde chaines, and bracelets” instead of “of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets”]. At Psalm 79:1, the 1611 edition has a comma between “thine” and “inheritance.”

In an example from the standard 1638 Cambridge edition of the KJV, a comma in Hebrew 10:13 was moved so that it stated “after he had offered one sacrifice for sins, for ever sat down on the right hand of God.” This moved comma remained in most KJV editions for 200 years until it has changed back in 1838 in a London KJV edition printed by George Eyre and Andrew Spottiswoode to where it was placed in the 1611 edition. The standard 1743 Cambridge KJV edition, the standard 1762 Cambridge KJV edition, the 1769 Cambridge edition, and the standard 1769 Oxford KJV edition had the comma after “sins” and before “forever sat down.” Concerning Hebrews 10:12, KJV-only author David Daniels asserted: “So the King James rightly said Jesus’ one sacrifice for sins was forever. The Geneva instead says that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins, then set down forever. But anyone can see this is false, when we compare it to Stephen’s visions of heaven, as being stoned to death in Acts 7:55-56” (Can You Trust Just One Bible, ebook without page numbers). For two hundred years, the presentation or punctuation that David Daniels condemned as false was standard in most KJV editions, but KJV-only advocates may ignore or avoid this relevant fact. Gail RIplinger seems to have been unaware of where KJV editions placed the comma at Hebrews 10:12 from 1638 until 1838--two hundred years (Hazardous Materials, p. 455).

At 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, the 1611 edition of the KJV and most editions up to the 1743 Cambridge had a comma after “God” and before “and our Saviour.” F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “In regard to weightier matters, the comma put by 1611 after ‘God’ in Titus 2:13 is fitly removed by 1769 moderns, that ‘the great God and our Saviour’ may be seen to be joint predicates of the same Divine Person” (Authorized Edition, p. 87). KJV-only author David Cloud acknowledged: “In some cases, punctuation changes were significant, such as the removal of the comma after ‘God’ in Titus 2:13” (Faith, p. 590).

 

[Yeshua1]

Would it be true that punctuation changes are not significant in all cases?

F. H. A. Scrivener asserted: “The case in which difference in punctuation involves difference of meaning cannot be thus summarily dismissed” (Authorized Edition, p. 82). David Norton maintained that punctuation does matter, that it is important, and that it “controls meaning” (Textual History of the KJB, pp. 149-150).

In at least some cases and likely in many cases, a difference in punctuation can affect the meaning and interpretation of a verse or a sentence, which would make these changes significant. The moving of a comma or introduction of a comma can make a difference in the meaning of a sentence, preventing misunderstanding or perhaps sometimes contributing to possible misunderstanding.

In one example at Luke 23:32, commas, not found in the 1611 edition, was added after the word “other” and after “malefactor” to remove the possibility of it being understood to suggest that Jesus was also a malefactor. Donald Brake maintained that “a missing comma causes some ambiguity in Luke 23:32” and that “a comma belongs after ‘two other,’ perhaps clarifying that only two of the three parties present were malefactors” (Visual History of the KJB, p. 157). These commas at Luke 23:32 may have been first added in Edinburgh KJV editions in the 1780’s and adopted in Oxford, Cambridge, and London editions after 1800. Scrivener could not find the introduction of the comma at Luke 23:32 earlier than a KJV edition printed in 1817, but he did not consider or check editions printed in Edinburgh (Authorized Edition, p. 87).

In another example a comma in the 1611 edition at 2 Corinthians 5:2 [“grone earnestly, desiring”] is moved and placed after the word “groan.” Thus, the adverb “earnestly” is made to modify the word “desiring” instead of modifying the verb “groan” as it would in the 1611 edition. In his anniversary essay in Oxford’s 2010 reprint of the 1611, Gordon Campbell acknowledged that at 2 Corinthians 5:2 “the shifting of the comma changes the meaning, because the adverb ‘earnestly’ modifies ‘desiring’ instead of ‘groan’.”

At Numbers 31:50, a comma is missing in the 1611 edition after “gold”, which would result in it modifying the word chain [“of jewels of golde chaines, and bracelets” instead of “of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets”]. At Psalm 79:1, the 1611 edition has a comma between “thine” and “inheritance.”

In an example from the standard 1638 Cambridge edition of the KJV, a comma in Hebrew 10:13 was moved so that it stated “after he had offered one sacrifice for sins, for ever sat down on the right hand of God.” This moved comma remained in most KJV editions for 200 years until it has changed back in 1838 in a London KJV edition printed by George Eyre and Andrew Spottiswoode to where it was placed in the 1611 edition. The standard 1743 Cambridge KJV edition, the standard 1762 Cambridge KJV edition, the 1769 Cambridge edition, and the standard 1769 Oxford KJV edition had the comma after “sins” and before “forever sat down.” Concerning Hebrews 10:12, KJV-only author David Daniels asserted: “So the King James rightly said Jesus’ one sacrifice for sins was forever. The Geneva instead says that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins, then set down forever. But anyone can see this is false, when we compare it to Stephen’s visions of heaven, as being stoned to death in Acts 7:55-56” (Can You Trust Just One Bible, ebook without page numbers). For two hundred years, the presentation or punctuation that David Daniels condemned as false was standard in most KJV editions, but KJV-only advocates may ignore or avoid this relevant fact. Gail RIplinger seems to have been unaware of where KJV editions placed the comma at Hebrews 10:12 from 1638 until 1838--two hundred years (Hazardous Materials, p. 455).

At 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, the 1611 edition of the KJV and most editions up to the 1743 Cambridge had a comma after “God” and before “and our Saviour.” F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “In regard to weightier matters, the comma put by 1611 after ‘God’ in Titus 2:13 is fitly removed by 1769 moderns, that ‘the great God and our Saviour’ may be seen to be joint predicates of the same Divine Person” (Authorized Edition, p. 87). KJV-only author David Cloud acknowledged: “In some cases, punctuation changes were significant, such as the removal of the comma after ‘God’ in Titus 2:13” (Faith, p. 590).

The Kjv was plainly wrong there!

 

[Yeshua1]

KJV says the same thing but contenders wish to make a big deal about punctuations as if it did not.

Proof is on Who it is that is appearing which preceded the Great God & Our Saviour Jesus Christ. The Father is not appearing and so following the words of that verse; Great God is referring to Jesus Christ Who is the Only One that will be appearing as being our blessed hope per the subject matter of the verse.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; KJV

The Kjv as just plain wrong in that passage !

 

[Hark]

Would it be true that punctuation changes are not significant in all cases?

Since there were no original punctuations in the scripture, you have to give pause.

"Rudimentary punctuation marks began to appear gradually in the sixth and seventh centuries, usually indicating breaks in sentences. It was not until the seventh century that marks for breathing and accents began to appear, and it was not until the ninth century that the continuous writing in the texts began to be broken into individual words."

Chapters, Verses, Punctuation, Spelling, and Italics | Religious Studies Center.

But we can try to discern this issue you bring with His help..

F. H. A. Scrivener asserted: “The case in which difference in punctuation involves difference of meaning cannot be thus summarily dismissed” (Authorized Edition, p. 82). David Norton maintained that punctuation does matter, that it is important, and that it “controls meaning” (Textual History of the KJB, pp. 149-150).

In at least some cases and likely in many cases, a difference in punctuation can affect the meaning and interpretation of a verse or a sentence, which would make these changes significant. The moving of a comma or introduction of a comma can make a difference in the meaning of a sentence, preventing misunderstanding or perhaps sometimes contributing to possible misunderstanding.

Would it be sensible to remove all doubt & just remove the punctuations & read His words as is with His wisdom?

In one example at Luke 23:32, commas, not found in the 1611 edition, was added after the word “other” and after “malefactor” to remove the possibility of it being understood to suggest that Jesus was also a malefactor. Donald Brake maintained that “a missing comma causes some ambiguity in Luke 23:32” and that “a comma belongs after ‘two other,’ perhaps clarifying that only two of the three parties present were malefactors” (Visual History of the KJB, p. 157). These commas at Luke 23:32 may have been first added in Edinburgh KJV editions in the 1780’s and adopted in Oxford, Cambridge, and London editions after 1800. Scrivener could not find the introduction of the comma at Luke 23:32 earlier than a KJV edition printed in 1817, but he did not consider or check editions printed in Edinburgh (Authorized Edition, p. 87).

Luke 23:32 And there were also two other malefactors led with him to be put to death. KJV

I read the same meaning when the commas was removed. Were there not two thieves that hung on the cross?

Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. KJV

Mark 15:27And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. KJV

Just because the two that hung with Him were malefactors, did not mean that He was any more than them being thieves meant that He was. Ig mockers want to make something of Luke 23:32, then Matthew 27:38 & Mark 15:27 in that same Bible can confirm the rightly dividing of the word of truth in Luke 23:32 as not inferring that Jesus was also a malefactor.

In another example a comma in the 1611 edition at 2 Corinthians 5:2 [“grone earnestly, desiring”] is moved and placed after the word “groan.” Thus, the adverb “earnestly” is made to modify the word “desiring” instead of modifying the verb “groan” as it would in the 1611 edition. In his anniversary essay in Oxford’s 2010 reprint of the 1611, Gordon Campbell acknowledged that at 2 Corinthians 5:2 “the shifting of the comma changes the meaning, because the adverb ‘earnestly’ modifies ‘desiring’ instead of ‘groan’.”

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: KJV

Removing the comma, one can still read with His wisdom in understanding His words since groaning ernestly is not going to achieve anything but while we groan, we are desiring earnestly our future inheritance in Heaven.

At Numbers 31:50, a comma is missing in the 1611 edition after “gold”, which would result in it modifying the word chain [“of jewels of golde chaines, and bracelets” instead of “of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets”]. At Psalm 79:1, the 1611 edition has a comma between “thine” and “inheritance.”

You know.. I am sure the subject of punctuation is going to give a difference of opinions even among those skilled in that field as we do with the scripture & so it is not about which punctuation is right but the true meaning of His words & nobody can convince anyone that they are right when we are to rely on Jesus for understanding the wisdom of His words. The example about Numbers 31:50 can be argued that jewels are not gold but can be found on gold chains & bracelets. But can I convince anyone or is it not on God to help others see as He has led me to see? I can share, but only He can cause the increase.

In an example from the standard 1638 Cambridge edition of the KJV, a comma in Hebrew 10:13 was moved so that it stated “after he had offered one sacrifice for sins, for ever sat down on the right hand of God.” This moved comma remained in most KJV editions for 200 years until it has changed back in 1838 in a London KJV edition printed by George Eyre and Andrew Spottiswoode to where it was placed in the 1611 edition. The standard 1743 Cambridge KJV edition, the standard 1762 Cambridge KJV edition, the 1769 Cambridge edition, and the standard 1769 Oxford KJV edition had the comma after “sins” and before “forever sat down.” Concerning Hebrews 10:12, KJV-only author David Daniels asserted: “So the King James rightly said Jesus’ one sacrifice for sins was forever. The Geneva instead says that Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins, then set down forever. But anyone can see this is false, when we compare it to Stephen’s visions of heaven, as being stoned to death in Acts 7:55-56” (Can You Trust Just One Bible, ebook without page numbers). For two hundred years, the presentation or punctuation that David Daniels condemned as false was standard in most KJV editions, but KJV-only advocates may ignore or avoid this relevant fact. Gail RIplinger seems to have been unaware of where KJV editions placed the comma at Hebrews 10:12 from 1638 until 1838--two hundred years (Hazardous Materials, p. 455).

Again, it is by the inference of contenders that the punctuation was wrong that is declaring it as false.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever sat down on the right hand of God; KJV

Remove the comma to remove all doubt when you read His words with His wisdom. With the commas, you are inferring to man's rules of proper placement which can vary per what they say accept or separates words in the sentence to mean but they can't say that for the verse hence the Word of God..

At 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, the 1611 edition of the KJV and most editions up to the 1743 Cambridge had a comma after “God” and before “and our Saviour.” F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “In regard to weightier matters, the comma put by 1611 after ‘God’ in Titus 2:13 is fitly removed by 1769 moderns, that ‘the great God and our Saviour’ may be seen to be joint predicates of the same Divine Person” (Authorized Edition, p. 87). KJV-only author David Cloud acknowledged: “In some cases, punctuation changes were significant, such as the removal of the comma after ‘God’ in Titus 2:13” (Faith, p. 590).

Just because they say so, does not make it so. KJV-only can make mistakes too. Again I apply the rule of no commas.

2 Peter 1:1Simon Peter a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: KJV

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; KJV

Removing the comma does not make it impossible for me to discern Simon Peter as a servant & an apostle of Jesus Christ any more than this righteousness is of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Removing the comma in Titus 2:13, we see that the blessed hope & appearing is both on the Great God & our Saviour Jesus Christ since God the father is not appearing but Jesus Christ is, then that Great God appearing is also Jesus Christ.

 

[Hark]

The Kjv was plainly wrong there!

Then we agree to disagree. Scripture as it is written without punctuations proves the KJV has not changed anything at all by His words alone. Man does with their silly rules of punctuations & there are debates in that field too.

 

[Origen]

The Kjv as just plain wrong in that passage !

One of the most glaring examples, in my opinion, is Roman 9:5.

KJV - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

ESV - To them belong lthe patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
NIV - Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
LEB - to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

 

[Hark]

One of the most glaring examples, in my opinion, is Roman 9:5.

KJV - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

ESV - To them belong lthe patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
NIV - Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
LEB - to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Blessing Christ as God forever is the message you missed in the KJV.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

Can you point out "over all" from the Greek? Seems kind of a stretch when the message is plain enough regarding Christ as the blessed God forever.

 

[rlvaughn]

An interesting early reference to the Johannine Comma is attested in Priscillian’s Liber Apologeticus, written circa 380 in Latin:

sicut Iohannes ait: Tria sunt quae testimonium dicunt in terra aqua caro et sanguis et haec tria in unum sunt, et tria sunt quae testimonium dicunt in coelo pater verbum et spiritus et haec tria unum sunt in Christo Iesu.​

A possible English translation is:

As John says, “and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.”​

Liber Apologeticus is usually ascribed to Priscillian of Avila, though sometimes to an unknown protégé of his. Some writers try to affix the origin of the Johannine Comma itself to Priscillian. However, it is clear that Priscillian attributes it to the apostle John. One may choose to reject the witness of Priscillian, but one should not deny that he wrote “sicut Iohannes ait” (“As John says.”)

Compared to our common version (King James), a translation from Priscillian’s Latin exhibits a few differences.

King James translation: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Priscillian translation: And there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.

• Priscillian’s version reverses the order, placing the record on earth first, and the record in heaven afterward.
• Priscillian’s version of the testimony on earth has flesh instead of Spirit.
• Priscillian’s version adds “in Christ Jesus” after the end of the testimony in heaven.

Nevertheless, Priscillian had some knowledge of the text, and believed it was written by John.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As the OP is now banned for 6 months this thread is closed.



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