1 Thessalonians 2v14

I can't read your mind, you tell us? Is it okay to use synonyms to update the words in the KJV?

If NOT then the 1611 had a BIG mistake. (Well, it had a mistake anyway because the two aren't synonymous, regardless of what you say about it.)

 

I repeat my question, which one is accurate Michelle?

1) "the" and "our" are both okay.

2) The 1611 had a mistake.

These are NOT mutually exclusive. Which one is correct? Just name a number, don't beat around the bush. You have used BOTH of these arguments--which one are you now going with? 1 or 2 -- a simple 1 or 2 will do for the answer, please.

 

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So - it is true - we need TWO editions of the KJV to get the full meaning? One that says "the" and one that says "our"?
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Nope. They are one in the same, and one who is in Christ Jesus knows this, whether it reads "the" or "our", as it is understood as both simultaneously. Where we need to get understanding from, and where we ought to get this from, is from the Holy Spirit of truth and the conviction of the truth upon our heart as we read and study with faith and humbleness.

Your are just plain trying to argue and straining at a gnat, while swallowing a camel, and I am now done with this discussion.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

This is the answer you always give when you cannot give us an answer. So, in your book it was okay for the Bible to change from one word to another one as long as it was the KJV?

 

C4K am I mistaken or is "argue" pretty much synonymous with "debate"?

 

Phillip,

Just a word of advice to ya. Look with your spiritual eyes and your heart, <attack deleted> and you will go a long way to understand this issue and the reasons I and others like me come here and share with you what we do.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ January 25, 2005, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

Drat, I was still waiting for you to start.

 

Drat, I was still waiting for you to start. </font>[/QUOTE]ROFL LOL ROFL yow!!! love it!!!

 

I am serious about this Michelle: I am getting a little sick and tired of you implying that I am using carnal eyes, and not following the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

The Lord Knows that I am certainly not as perfect as you, but it gets a little old for you to always end a debate when you get stuck by telling me that I am not following God's Words.

THIS IS A PERSONAL ATTACK and I do NOT appreciate it.

 

Sorry, C4K, just had to get that off my chest.

I think we may never know, I assume that it was a mistake. How about source documents? Are there any manuscripts that would be translated using "the" instead of "our" that the KJV translators may have used?

 

I am currently looking at all of my Greek sources to see if possibly one does actually say that. I wish I had access to individual manuscripts with an easy way to sort to verses they may contain. I have to rely mostly on compiled sources such as Nestles or Stephens (depending on which source I look at.) Since ALL of these sources are a "pick and choose" by the original editors, then it is difficult to find what individual manuscripts may say.

It is always possible (although I doubt it) that a single manuscript would be translated properly with "the" and it is closer to the originals. Just thinking aloud.

 

I know, I pulled it up in my Bible software and did a compare with about 14 versions and was wondering if all of them got it wrong.

I rechecked the first post, went back to the software --- well, finally figured it out.

 

Phillip,


I was not saying that you were carnal. I was simply giving you advice. Why do you all take everything that I say, so wrong and in the wrong way? We ALL have the tendency to approach matters in a carnal and fleshy way, which includes me also!


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, let's not get into a spitting match here, but when you tell us to look with Spiritual and not carnal eyes, then you follow that with "that's why I and others come here to share with you." ...you are obviously saying that we are wrong and you are right so therefore we are using carnal eyes.

If I misunderstood your post, I'm sorry, but if you will read your post, it is pretty literal. I'm right, your wrong and so therefore I'm using Spiritual eyes, while you are using carnal eyes.

Does that make sense?

Okay, I'm through, I just wanted to explain how that came across. No appologies necessary, let's just stick to the debate and we will do fine.

I also understand what you are saying about following the Holy Spirit. THAT is important. But, the Bible is our direct Word from God and if its not in the Bible then we should be wary of whether or not we are getting the right message.

Now, back to the subject. C4K, same here so far.

Unless they just happened to get their hands on a single manuscript that we are unaware of. . . I still vote "mistake".

 

Philip: “How about source documents? Are there any manuscripts that would be translated using "the" instead of "our" that the KJV translators may have used?”

From my sources, I find that BF earlier was correct, and that there are *no* sources -- whether Greek manuscripts or ancient versions -- that omit “our” in this verse.

 

Michelle: “What saith the scriptures concerning this issue? You refuse to go there, cause you cannot find anything to defend your "whateverism" or anything goes ism even at the expense of truth.”

Michelle raises an excellent question, and we *should* go to the Scriptures and see what the true situation happens to be. The case is extremely simple and easy to verify by what “the Scriptures” (i.e. the underlying Greek from which the KJV was translated) actually say:

2Thess 2:14 AV 1611 -- “the glorie of the Lord Iesus Christ”

2Thes 2:14 AV 1769 -- “the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ”

KJV underlying Greek (TBS edition): DOXHS TOU KURIOU *HMWN* IHSOU CRISTOU (= “glory of the Lord *of us* Jesus Christ”).

Therefore “our” is correct and the original AV 1611 got it wrong. Let's blame the typesetters, shall we?

God said it. That settles it. I believe it.