ILUVLIGHT. A reply to your post posted 21 December, 2004 10:16
Where are you coming from with this type of statement ILUVLIGHT?
I've no idea really what Augustine believed never having met the bloke nor read any of his writings. One or two maybe but I can't remember much and I can assure you that was after I became a Christian.
To be told that the only reason I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins is because of some geezer two thousand years ago believed that we are saved by grace leaves me almost without response. You should thank God that I will have mercy on you. This wild lashing out does not become us.
We must remember, we are here to edify each other, to build each other up in love out of reverence for Christ. We are not to make sweeping generalisations about anyone because we are all far too complicated for sweeping generalisations. Keep focused. If you keep focused then you might answer some of the points I rise with you instead of you having to rely on smear.
Just doing a bit of reading up on him to find out what my master believed.
This then is not God, if thou has comprehended it; but if this be God, thou hast not comprehended it. [Sermo LII] That's a good quote. Got Him pegged have you?
And another.
It is impossible that there should be inhabitants on the opposite side of the Earth, since no such race is recorded by Scripture among the descendants of Adam. [quoted from The Dark Side of Christian History by Linda Ellerbe]
Well there you go, he was human after all.
He wrote a lot of stuff it shouldn't be too difficult to show me where he says this should it? You have made a statement about a brother of mine. You should back it up. You must know where to find it because you are quoting him. Or is this just mist thrown up into the air to cloud the view? Smoke to cause confusion? What the hell difference does it make what Calvin believed? I couldn't give a care usually about what another believes but Calvin, as a teacher, he is impressive. He is impressive because he knew Jesus and he followed Jesus. I follow Christ, not Calvin and I follow Christ not Augustine.
Praise the Lord that Calvin was prepared and there just when needed. Trained and brilliant he helped take on the RCC and he took his part in the freedom which he helped win for us.
The first time in a thousand years the Children of God were able to lift their voices to their Lord and Saviour openly and without fear of burning. In other places my brothers and sisters were hunted down like animals by the church you are trying to link us with.
We remember the names of the famous ones but we don't forget the millions of nameless brothers and sisters butchered by that lot and they will do it again when they get the oppotunity.
I am proud to be associated with my brothers and sisters that took the heat and won the day. They are those that I would emulate, my heros. They stood against those you try to link us with and they won us our freedom to worship as we will and they did that under fire. A bit more respect towards them is demanded. He is a leader in our Church and as such you should give him honour not smear: 6 a : a deliberate and usually unsubstantiated charge or accusation intended to foment distrust or hatred against the person or organization so charged.
Are you with us or with them? Why have you come outside of scripture to prove scripture? That is what those ravenous wolves do who want to spill our blood. Who add to scripture and invent new ones to keep whatever.
As for the quote below, for a complete refutation of your argument read the 39 Articles of the Church of England. Written by Thomas Cranmer, a brother of mine, burnt, by politics maybe, but still by Catholics.
Reformed? Go on show us how to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
Ok, we shall takes turns to find comparisons. I'll start you off. Me and the RCC believe there is One God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three Beings in One God. Aka The Trinity.
Now your go.
We waver?That is a comparison but it is the wrong way round to what you say. Read the Council of Trent at all? That's what they believe. Unchanging hatred for the Church of Christ and for any that will contend with them. The right to kill heretics is still on their books. They are as rigid in their convictions as Calvinists are with the truth. It's meaningless. What you are saying has no place here. Even if you were right you are only telling me and anyone reading it that people are people. Let's see you try to use the word of God aright. That is what should be discussed.
As for me, I call myself a Christian to those outside the Church. I call myself a Calvinist to other Christians for the sake of letting them know a lot about me in a short space of time. It also lets me know a lot about them in a short space of time as well. And I would call myself a supralapsarian to a Calvinist. It's a label I stick to myself so that others have a place to respond from. Calvinism does not define me scripture does and Calvinism, where it is scriptural, is scripture.
Why you put a bad impression on the word 'waver' is beyond me. Surely there is room to grow and learn. What's so wrong in wavering, wavering would mean you are not sure and not sure is a good place to be. It's a place you can become sure from.
But why? We say that we are saved because we can't save ourselves. How is that possible to get us the tag of 'self-righteous'? Because we say we have no righteousness of our own we get charged with self-righteousness. You really turn the words upside down don't you? Doublespeak is it?
...without repentance...
Repentance must include faith and faith is a gift of God. How can you have faith before repentance? Without faith it is impossible to please Him. Repentance without faith is not repentance.
...saved from their sins without repentance... But lack of repentance is a sin because it is a lack of faith. Those who do not go to Him do not believe in Him. It is a continuation of the rebellion. You must have faith when you repent. That is our point of view. God must first come to a man and turn him around. We are in rebellion. We won't turn unless caused to by a stronger power than our fallen natures because our fallen natures are in control of us. All of us. All the time, we are at war with God and He has told you this, the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Rom 8:7. And that is man's condition. The only way you are going to overcome your fallen nature is by having faith in God. You can't overcome what you are without faith therefore you cannot overcome unless faith is a gift of God and is given freely to you. With that faith you can overcome and repent as one should, in faith. Not for faith.
You claim you have faith from yourselfs which means you have overcome your fallen nature in your own strength and you say we are self-righteous! That is amazing.
You can't overcome what you are without faith therefore you cannot overcome unless that faith is a gift of God and is given freely to you. And this is no infringment on man's will. Man's will is bound to the fallen nature. Taken captive. Look that up in the Greek, Rom 7:23. God frees it in a real sense from bondage which it was not in in the beginning. Repaired to a point. Still not able but at least willing. Unable to even pray for ourselves, RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. Complete and utter bystanders in the struggle, Gal 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
That's my self-righteousness. The Lord Jesus forgave me and saved me and that was the last thing I wanted. As a sinner that was the last thing I wanted. Yet He caused me to be seen by the Father as righteous, as blameless and as holy as His Son. Without me He would not be complete. I'm part of His body and I would not give that away for anything. I say that because He will not let me, Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Which I would be only too willing to do in myself as Esau did. He was no worse than me. More self-righteousness I suppose?
Answer these points. I don't care what anyone else believes. I want to know what you believe and why from scripture. I want to know your answers to these points so that I can judge what you believe.
How can making the will function as it was meant to function be an infringment of that will? Whether we regard it as an infringment or not does not change the situation. "Have I not the right." He asks, "To do as I please?"
johnp.
Where are you coming from with this type of statement ILUVLIGHT?
Are you trying to dazzle us with your brilliant understanding of me or are you just joking? Because, after the initial shock that is just funny.
I've no idea really what Augustine believed never having met the bloke nor read any of his writings. One or two maybe but I can't remember much and I can assure you that was after I became a Christian.
To be told that the only reason I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins is because of some geezer two thousand years ago believed that we are saved by grace leaves me almost without response. You should thank God that I will have mercy on you. This wild lashing out does not become us.
We must remember, we are here to edify each other, to build each other up in love out of reverence for Christ. We are not to make sweeping generalisations about anyone because we are all far too complicated for sweeping generalisations. Keep focused. If you keep focused then you might answer some of the points I rise with you instead of you having to rely on smear.
Just doing a bit of reading up on him to find out what my master believed.
This then is not God, if thou has comprehended it; but if this be God, thou hast not comprehended it. [Sermo LII] That's a good quote. Got Him pegged have you?
And another.
It is impossible that there should be inhabitants on the opposite side of the Earth, since no such race is recorded by Scripture among the descendants of Adam. [quoted from The Dark Side of Christian History by Linda Ellerbe]
Well there you go, he was human after all.
I know. So what has the whore to do with us?
Prove it or retract it. Simple.
He wrote a lot of stuff it shouldn't be too difficult to show me where he says this should it? You have made a statement about a brother of mine. You should back it up. You must know where to find it because you are quoting him. Or is this just mist thrown up into the air to cloud the view? Smoke to cause confusion? What the hell difference does it make what Calvin believed? I couldn't give a care usually about what another believes but Calvin, as a teacher, he is impressive. He is impressive because he knew Jesus and he followed Jesus. I follow Christ, not Calvin and I follow Christ not Augustine.
Praise the Lord that Calvin was prepared and there just when needed. Trained and brilliant he helped take on the RCC and he took his part in the freedom which he helped win for us.
The first time in a thousand years the Children of God were able to lift their voices to their Lord and Saviour openly and without fear of burning. In other places my brothers and sisters were hunted down like animals by the church you are trying to link us with.
We remember the names of the famous ones but we don't forget the millions of nameless brothers and sisters butchered by that lot and they will do it again when they get the oppotunity.
I am proud to be associated with my brothers and sisters that took the heat and won the day. They are those that I would emulate, my heros. They stood against those you try to link us with and they won us our freedom to worship as we will and they did that under fire. A bit more respect towards them is demanded. He is a leader in our Church and as such you should give him honour not smear: 6 a : a deliberate and usually unsubstantiated charge or accusation intended to foment distrust or hatred against the person or organization so charged.
Are you with us or with them? Why have you come outside of scripture to prove scripture? That is what those ravenous wolves do who want to spill our blood. Who add to scripture and invent new ones to keep whatever.
As for the quote below, for a complete refutation of your argument read the 39 Articles of the Church of England. Written by Thomas Cranmer, a brother of mine, burnt, by politics maybe, but still by Catholics.
This is very serious. Remember, He said, "The darkness will never overcome the light." In your anger do not sin!
Reformed? Go on show us how to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
Ok, we shall takes turns to find comparisons. I'll start you off. Me and the RCC believe there is One God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three Beings in One God. Aka The Trinity.
Now your go.
Now you said it was reformed? That's right they believe it is man's choice as well. O no, we were doing that the other way round wasn't we?
We waver?That is a comparison but it is the wrong way round to what you say. Read the Council of Trent at all? That's what they believe. Unchanging hatred for the Church of Christ and for any that will contend with them. The right to kill heretics is still on their books. They are as rigid in their convictions as Calvinists are with the truth. It's meaningless. What you are saying has no place here. Even if you were right you are only telling me and anyone reading it that people are people. Let's see you try to use the word of God aright. That is what should be discussed.
As for me, I call myself a Christian to those outside the Church. I call myself a Calvinist to other Christians for the sake of letting them know a lot about me in a short space of time. It also lets me know a lot about them in a short space of time as well. And I would call myself a supralapsarian to a Calvinist. It's a label I stick to myself so that others have a place to respond from. Calvinism does not define me scripture does and Calvinism, where it is scriptural, is scripture.
Why you put a bad impression on the word 'waver' is beyond me. Surely there is room to grow and learn. What's so wrong in wavering, wavering would mean you are not sure and not sure is a good place to be. It's a place you can become sure from.
Yes I know myself and recognise to a degree my depravity. It was a great gift He gave me, to know myself. Nothing good lives in me in my sinful nature and that is sure! Praise the Lord for showing me what a wretch I am. He then told me not to worry about that because 'all' men are like me. All men but Jesus that is. All men are like grass. All men but Jesus.
...ultimate self righteousness.
But why? We say that we are saved because we can't save ourselves. How is that possible to get us the tag of 'self-righteous'? Because we say we have no righteousness of our own we get charged with self-righteousness. You really turn the words upside down don't you? Doublespeak is it?
...without repentance...
Repentance must include faith and faith is a gift of God. How can you have faith before repentance? Without faith it is impossible to please Him. Repentance without faith is not repentance.
...saved from their sins without repentance... But lack of repentance is a sin because it is a lack of faith. Those who do not go to Him do not believe in Him. It is a continuation of the rebellion. You must have faith when you repent. That is our point of view. God must first come to a man and turn him around. We are in rebellion. We won't turn unless caused to by a stronger power than our fallen natures because our fallen natures are in control of us. All of us. All the time, we are at war with God and He has told you this, the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Rom 8:7. And that is man's condition. The only way you are going to overcome your fallen nature is by having faith in God. You can't overcome what you are without faith therefore you cannot overcome unless faith is a gift of God and is given freely to you. With that faith you can overcome and repent as one should, in faith. Not for faith.
You claim you have faith from yourselfs which means you have overcome your fallen nature in your own strength and you say we are self-righteous! That is amazing.
You can't overcome what you are without faith therefore you cannot overcome unless that faith is a gift of God and is given freely to you. And this is no infringment on man's will. Man's will is bound to the fallen nature. Taken captive. Look that up in the Greek, Rom 7:23. God frees it in a real sense from bondage which it was not in in the beginning. Repaired to a point. Still not able but at least willing. Unable to even pray for ourselves, RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. Complete and utter bystanders in the struggle, Gal 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
That's my self-righteousness. The Lord Jesus forgave me and saved me and that was the last thing I wanted. As a sinner that was the last thing I wanted. Yet He caused me to be seen by the Father as righteous, as blameless and as holy as His Son. Without me He would not be complete. I'm part of His body and I would not give that away for anything. I say that because He will not let me, Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Which I would be only too willing to do in myself as Esau did. He was no worse than me. More self-righteousness I suppose?
Answer these points. I don't care what anyone else believes. I want to know what you believe and why from scripture. I want to know your answers to these points so that I can judge what you believe.
How can making the will function as it was meant to function be an infringment of that will? Whether we regard it as an infringment or not does not change the situation. "Have I not the right." He asks, "To do as I please?"
johnp.
