1 Timothy 2:12 should a woman teach a man

[Crabtownboy]

In theological instruction, teaching is authority because teaching is telling someone what to believe based on what the word says. But even at that, the passage says "teach or exercise authority" which are two different things most likely. It does not say "exercise authority by teaching."

Again, actually focusing on the text of Scripture answers a lot of these questions.

Define "having authority" for me. I have ask this question in several threads and to date have not received any definition. I am beginning to believe this is a work, like inerrancy, that people like to throw out, but for which there is no generally agreed upon definition.

I agree that the phrase "teach or exercise authority" is two different things, two different meanings. The word "or" makes a huge difference. If Paul has said, "teach and exercise authority" it would be a much stronger case for their meaing one and the same.

In the following sentence I mean no disrespect for anyone and especially for those on this BB that I really do not know. Now having said that I will say that I have known far too many pastors with feet of clay and I am far too much of a traditional Baptist to agree that a pastor has any authority, as I understand authority, over other Christians. The idea of having authority is a very appealing one, especially to those who like to control others, and I have seen pastors who were very proud of their "authority." To me the being proud negated any possibility of their having authority. Christ talked about being a servant, but not about having authority. The person who wants to be first must be last. I see that as being a servant with no authority, only service to God. To me only God has authority.

I appreciate you clam, rational discussion on this and I have noted it in other threads.

 

[Marcia]

That is exactly what I've been saying. Paul is telling Timothy that women are not to be permitted to have the authority or role of pastor. This is what Paul means. It's not that she can't teach on a one on one basis. It's that she can't pastor the church.

If teaching (in the NT sense, as you are saying) means to pastor or have authority of the pastor, then no one would be allowed to teach, men or women. But Paul is addressing the role of women as under the authority of men, not that she can't teach a class. She is not to be pastor/teacher of the church. She is not to usurp the role and authority of the pastor.

My SS teacher is a man. But I am not under his authority. He has no authority over me. I am under the pastor's authority, as is my teacher.

I don't think a teacher in the church has to be pastor, but it carries the same weight, which is why women are not called to it. I think all pastors are teachers but not all teachers are pastors.

I would not want to be a member of a church that allowed women SS teachers teaching God's word on a regular basis to classes with adult men in them. I've even been uncomfortable when a woman faciliated the class discussion when the teacher was absent (this happened a couple of times in my SS class but since it was temporary, I lived with it).

 

[Pastor Larry]

If it is not debatable, why are you debating?

You think this is a debate? A debate is where there are two sides to a matter. There are not. This is crystal clear.

Paul said, "I suffer not a woman to teach...,"not "Do not suffer a woman to teach."

1 Timothy was a statement, not a command. It was personal when Paul put the pronoun "I" in that statement.

Yes, Paul was an apostle. As an apostle his "personal statements" were mandates for the church. I have already given several other examples that make this crystal clear.

HEre's what's ironic. A few weeks ago we were having a discussion about evangelism and eating with people. You insisted that the lack of clarity of Scripture was in your favor. Here, you take something crystal clear against you and explain it away. It shows that for you the Bible is apparently just a tool from which you pick and choose to support your own preconceived beliefs.

You are wrong to accuse me of disobedience and need of repentance in this subject.

No, I am not. It is what we do when we love God and his word more than anything else. We stand up for it. The most unloving thing I could for you is to allow you to continue in wrong belief. I refuse to do that. When you do not believe what God says, you need to repent.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Theological instruction isn't seminary or Bible college. It is teaching who God is and how we should respond. Theological instruction always has as its goal the transformation of the hearer by the response of the life to the commands of God. The GC puts it this way: Teach them to observe all that I commanded you. Command is clearly authoritative, and teaching is right there with it.

I see that as God commanding them what to teach, but I do not see their teaching as being commands. It is teaching, it is imparting knowledge and truth. I agree the word command means authority, but it is God who commands and it is God who has authority.

An analogy ... realizing that all analogies break down at one point or another.

A man teaches a child ... God is our father ... and commands him to use that knowledge. The child goes to his sibling and teaches him/her the same thing. Can that child command his sibling to work for him. No for the father had commanded the child, not his sibling.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Define "having authority" for me.

In the context of teaching, it means telling people what to believe and how to live. It is telling people the truth of Scripture and how to apply it to life. In other context, it means to have rule over.

I agree that the phrase "teach or exercise authority" is two different things, two different meanings. The word "or" makes a huge difference. If Paul has said, "teach and exercise authority" it would be a much stronger case for their meaing one and the same.

Which, as I pointed out, doesn't help you. It means that even if I am wrong about teaching=having authority, then my point doesn't change. The Bible says she can't do either.

... I am far too much of a traditional Baptist to agree that a pastor has any authority, as I understand authority, over other Christians.

I am not sure that is a traditional Baptist position. But perhaps you are thinking of some application of authority that the Bible doesn't speak of.

I see that as being a servant with no authority, only service to God. To me only God has authority.

The Bible describes the pastor as an overseer of the flock, one who has charge, one who rules. It is a delegated authority from God, but it is hard to call it anything other than authority, it seems to me.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't think a teacher in the church has to be pastor, but it carries the same weight, which is why women are not called to it.

If teaching carries the same weight as pastor, then why are men allowed to teach? They have to be pastors to teach, right?

I would not want to be a member of a church that allowed women SS teachers teaching God's word on a regular basis to classes with adult men in them. I've even been uncomfortable when a woman faciliated the class discussion when the teacher was absent (this happened a couple of times in my SS class but since it was temporary, I lived with it).

Why did you live with it? You should have left, if you believe it is a sin for a woman to teach a man.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Pastor Larry, Annsni

Larry...

"So you think a women should be encouraged to disobey God? How abusive can you be? Why in the world would you encourage anyone to disobey God?"

Ann...

Since this is obviously unbiblical, I'd disagree with you. Scripture is clear whether it's politically correct or not."

The scripture is indeed clear regarding this topic.

Although I am not a "Church of Christ" person (I am Baptist), this material is pretty good regarding the scriptures view of this topic...

"Women Authorized to Teach the Bible

The New Testament authorizes things in three ways: declaration, approved example, and necessary implication. There are two kids of declarations: statements and commands. In all these ways, i.e., in every way the New Testament gives the right to act, the Scriptures authorize women to teach the Bible.

The apostle Paul directed Timothy, "And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Timothy 2:2). The word "men" in this passage is a translation of the Greek term "anthropois," which means "universally with reference to the genus or nature, without distinction of sex, a human being, whether male or female" (Thayer. 46). Part of a preacher's work is teaching faithful people, both men and women, to teach the Word of God. Thus, by statement, the apostle authorizes faithful women to teach the Scriptures.

The apostle Peter commands all Christians, men and women, to equip themselves to defend the faith (1 Peter 3:15). Paul instructs Titus to command aged women to teach practical scriptural truths especially applicable to the feminine gender to younger women (Titus 2:3-5). Thus, women are commanded to teach the Bible.
Priscilla, with her husband Aquila, explained to Apollos, an eloquent preacher who only knew John's baptism, "the way of God more accurately" (Acts 18:24-26).

Thus, women are authorized to teach the Word by approved example.


Several passages indicate women received the gift of prophecy (e.g., Acts 2:17; 21:8-9; 1 Corinthians 11:5). Since the function of a prophet was to teach (1 Corinthians 14:4), it is necessarily implied that women may teach God's will.

The Scope of Woman's Right to Teach the Scriptures

Several traditions among some brethren concerning the limitations of a woman's teaching role are without scriptural support. Some brethren to the contrary, teach a woman may teach a man the will of God (Acts 18:24-26). Furthermore, since the command to sing in worship applied to women as well as men, as saints in general and without qualification are taught to sing each to the other, and since we teach when we sing, the Scriptures authorize women to teach in the public worship assembly (Ephesians 5:18-19). And, since this singing is done when both men and women are present in the worship assembly, women have both the right and obligation to teach men in the assembly (Colossians 3:16).

In fact, the Scriptures, by necessary implication, authorize women to teach the church. The gift of prophecy was to edify (build up by teaching) the church (1 Corinthians 14:4). Certain women had the gift of prophecy (Acts 2:17; 21:8-9; 1 Corinthians 11:5). Therefore, certain women were to edify (build up by teaching) the church. This does not mean a woman should address the whole public worship assembly in the way a preacher does. She could edify the church in some arrangement in harmony with her sphere of life.

But these passages do establish a basic principle. A woman may teach any scriptural truth to anyone, anywhere, in any arrangement, unless there is a Bible restriction prohibiting it."

http://www.christistheway.com/2007/20070901d.html



:godisgood:

 

[Marcia]

If teaching carries the same weight as pastor, then why are men allowed to teach? They have to be pastors to teach, right?

Hello, Amy! Because men are given leadership roles in the church. God created an order of headship - this is clear in several passages such as:

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 1 Cor 11.3

For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. v. 8, 9

This goes back to Genesis and the order of creation. Just in case men think they can abuse this or that it means they are superior, a few verses further down Paul writes:

However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.
For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. v. 11, 12

From this passage, and others, we can derive the principles that men and women are equal in value, equal in God's eyes, men should not abuse women, BUT men do have a headship over women.

Eph 5.23 reiterates this headship:

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

I highly recommend this website which explains this topic in more depth. It is a subject worth studying from what the Bible says, not what we think or what we think the case should be (the link goes to the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood):
http://www.cbmw.org/

Also, I recommend this article by Ron Rhodes, a Christian author (and also friend of mine):
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Feminism.html

He addresses the larger issue of feminism but successfully refutes all the arguments for women teaching or pastoring (I know you reject the latter).

Why did you live with it? You should have left, if you believe it is a sin for a woman to teach a man

First of all, she was not teaching, she was facilitating a discussion. I was on the fence as to whether or not this was excercising leadership but decided it was not or that at least it was a gray area. I did consider not going but decided to go as I did not want to be divisive. As it turned out, she did not do much as the class is quite talkative and we carried on pretty much by ourselves with no problem!

 

[Marcia]

This is an excerpt from the article by Ron Rhodes at http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Feminism.html:

1 Timothy 2:11-14. Another passage in which Paul calls for the silence of women in church is 1 Timothy 2:11-14: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

Paul here builds his argument for female subordination on the order of creation and the order of the Fall. Paul's reasoning is something like this: "Adam was created first as the head; Eve was created second and she fell first; therefore, women are under some restriction." More is involved here than mere chronological priority. Paul saw the priority in time as indicative of the headship of the male, to which the woman, the "helper suitable for him" (Gen. 2:18), should respond.

We gain insight about Paul's prohibition by noting that teachers in New Testament times exercised substantial authority over learners.[39] Teaching doctrine in church was therefore reserved for those men whom God placed in authority to represent Him in spiritual matters. Women are not allowed to teach a church congregation, Paul indicated, for this - by the very nature of teaching - would place them in spiritual authority over men.

How, then, does Paul's command to silence relate to his allowance of women prophesying in 1 Corinthians 11? In 1 Corinthians 11 the women were speaking divine utterances, whereas in 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 they were not. Women who spoke under divine control and who were appropriately attired were not exercising their own authority over men and so were not in violation of Paul's injunctions in 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2.

He addresses other passages as well.

I have explored at length, over several years, both the pros and cons of this issue, so I urge all those who think it' s okay for women to teach to carefully explore the biblical arguments against it, such as given in this very thoughtful article. We should not just give an opinion based on what we think is right but explore the biblical principles carefully. It takes time, but it's worth it as all bible study is profitable. :flower:

 

[Amy.G]

I have explored at length, over several years, both the pros and cons of this issue, so I urge all those who think it' s okay for women to teach to carefully explore the biblical arguments against it, such as given in this very thoughtful article. We should not just give an opinion based on what we think is right but explore the biblical principles carefully. It takes time, but it's worth it as all bible study is profitable. :flower:

I will continue to study this issue as I have firmly decided I don't know everything.

 

[Marcia]

I will continue to study this issue as I have firmly decided I don't know everything.

Good for you, Amy! I figured you'd say something like that as you seem very ready to study, discuss and learn! :thumbs:

I enjoy being on threads with you.

 

[soninme]

To prove his point , Paul first of all goes to the creation of Adam and Eve .
Adam was formed first , then Eve .the very order of creation was significant. By creating man "FIRST" , God intended him to be the head , the one who would exercise direction, the one who would have authority. the fact that woman was created second means that she should be in submission to her husband . By basing his argument on the order of creation , Paul rules out any thought that this is a matter of "LOCAL" culture.
The second proof refers to the entrance of sin into the human race . instead of approaching Adam directly , the serpent went to Eve with his temptations and lies . According to God's intention , Eve should not have acted independantly . She should have gone to Adam and put the matter before him . Instead of that she allowed herself to be deceived and fell into transgression .

Just for the record an old pastor i once heard quoted this , "Scripture cant mean what it doesnt mean ".

 

[Goldie]

Define authority for me.

To rule over, as in "hen-pecked", to be emasculated.
I can think of nothing more awful or embarrasing than a woman bossing a man and he's like "Yes dear, no dear, 3 bags full, dear" :type: After all, woman was created to be man's helpmeet, not to be a masculine feminist.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Goldie,

"To rule over, as in "hen-pecked", to be emasculated.
I can think of nothing more awful or embarrasing than a woman bossing a man and he's like "Yes dear, no dear, 3 bags full, dear" After all, woman was created to be man's helpmeet, not to be a masculine feminist."

But thats not what we are discussing. What you just described is awful....just as awful as women who feel they must always be led by their husbands in all things, and always *supposedly* under his "authority" because she is so dependant and unable to get by without His "leadership".

We arent discussing any of those errors.

We are discussing women being teachers of the scriptures to a general audience.

The scriptures are clear that that is perfectly acceptable.

(btw, I DO believe that there are *specific times* when the leadership of the husband is scripturally warranted, but it has nothing to do with men only teaching the scriptures or women..supposedly...living their lives under the "authority" of their husbands.)


:godisgood:

 

[Goldie]

But thats not what we are discussing. What you just described is awful....just as awful as women who feel they must always be led by their husbands in all things, and always *supposedly* under his "authority" because she is so dependant and unable to get by without His "leadership".

Oh but it is when it comes to the pulpit and church matters. It just doesn't seem right when a woman Pastor cuckolds a man. Women can work in the ministry - but not in the aspect of having authority over men. And I think that extends to everyday life as well.

And by saying all of the above, I'm not implying that women should be brain dead. Women should just respect the place God has given them. If you look at some of the Pentecostal women preachers - their husbands are wimps - it's like the woman bringing home the bacon and the man being the "wife" and playing the secondary role.

 

[Matt Black]

Define "having authority" for me.

More specifically in the verse under discussion here, define auqenthin , and explain the difference in meaning and nuance between that and exousia

 

[annsni]

Pastor Larry, Annsni

Larry...



Ann...



The scripture is indeed clear regarding this topic.

Although I am not a "Church of Christ" person (I am Baptist), this material is pretty good regarding the scriptures view of this topic...





http://www.christistheway.com/2007/20070901d.html



:godisgood:

I never said women can't teach and I'd hope that those women who are gifted in this area WOULD teach. However there are restrictions on whom women can teach. Scripture is clear - a woman is not to teach or have authority over men. Period.

 

[Jerome]

1 Cor. 16:16
That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

Rom. 16:3
Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

Ro. 16:12
Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord.

Phil. 4:3
help those women which laboured with me in the gospel,

 

[Pastor Larry]

Not sure what the point of that is Jerome. This thread is about women teachign and exercising authority over men in the church. Those verses have nothing to do with this topic.

 

[annsni]

Not sure what the point of that is Jerome. This thread is about women teachign and exercising authority over men in the church. Those verses have nothing to do with this topic.

I agree. Those verses show just how important women are in the body of Christ and how needed they are. But they were not necessarily teaching but serving.

OK - I kind of think I know what you're saying with them now that I look at them again. In the Corinthians verse, Paul says to submit to those who work with him then the other verses show women who worked with Paul so Paul is saying to submit to these women too - is that correct?