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1 Timothy 2:12 should a woman teach a man
- Thread starter soninme
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Which of course means God doesn't know what He's talking about.Amy.G said:Oh boy! Here we go! :laugh:
I will just say this. Timothy was taught the scriptures by his mother, who I think was a woman.
I wonder did his mother teach him at home as she is supose too, or at church, with other men?
makes a difference.
donnA said:
Heres a scriptures saying what women can do .
Titus 2 : 4 These older women must train the younger women to love their husbands and their children, 5 to live wisely and be pure, to work in their homes, to do good, and to be submissive to their husbands. Then they will not bring shame on the word of God.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Notice this is Paul's preference. He said "I suffer not...," not "God does not suffer...".soninme said:
God used women throughout the Word of God, and yes, even in the temple. Anna ministered daily in the temple according to the Gospel's.
Some will use the verse found in 1 Corinthians where Paul said "it is not permitted for a woman to speak," but that is not a good one, for reading the passage in context, the women were not to ask questions and disrupt the teaching, but rather to ask of their husbands at home.
The passage in 1 Corinthians 14 is not a good one to use to defend the stance against women teaching or preaching the Word of God. God can use anyone He pleases, and sometimes does use women.
But, women are never to be pastor's in the Church as per Paul's instruction to young Timothy. The Bishop (which is the same office as Pastor or Elder) is to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband.
Let the women speak if God has given them something to teach. Open your Bible and make sure what they are teaching lines up with the Word of God. If it does, she has not erred in teaching.
Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luke 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luke 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luke 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luke 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luke 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
Luke 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Luke 2:37 And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day.
Luke 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
Surely it was not just women that were seeking redemption. Anna preached Christ to all that looked for redemption... and she was in the temple.
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Of course God knows what He's talking about. The problem is that sometimes we don't know what God is talking about.donnA said:
The fact is that Timothy was taught by his mother, a woman. Whether it was at home or in the Temple, she taught him. And I'm sure she took him to the Temple to worship and also taught him there.
I believe when taken in context and taking into account the history of the church at the time Paul wrote to Timothy, we see that it wasn't teaching that was the problem, it was women who wanted to have authority over men. Paul makes it clear as to what God says about the role of women and men in the church. If a woman teaches under the authority of the pastor, then she is not violating God's order of things.
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
soninme said:
This very issue caused a lot of problems with my church recently. Many believe women should only teach women and other do not. So when a woman was allowed to head a small group the infighting started and some left the church. This is a real sticky issue.
What does the Bible say? Isn’t this easy? “I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority but to keep silent.” I am not sure it can be any clearer.
Timothy was not yet a man. He was a boy. But at least you know that his mother was a woman.
”All Scripture is God-breathed.” That means that this is not “Paul’s preference” but “God’s command,” and it is rooted in creation and the fall.
This is a red herring. There is no dispute that God used women. This verse is not about God using women, but about women teaching men and having authority in the church.
Strangely enough, that’s not what Paul said. If you actually read the passage, you will see that he is not talking about being pastors. Furthermore, you already stated that this was Paul’s preference, so if you were right (and you weren’t), then women could be elders anyway.
Fortunately, this is not one of those times. It is plain and clear.
You are? Based on what?
Teaching is authoritative by its nature, and even if you were right, Paul still says that women are not to teach men.
Yes he does. It is hard to imagine how he could have made it more plain. And yet you still deny it.
Where in the text is this? Nowhere. This is made up. Furthermore, the verse says she is to keep silent. How is she keeping silent if she is teaching men under the authority of the pastor?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Anna the Prophetess spoke of the Christ to all who sought redemption... not just the women, but all.
And she spoke in the Temple.
It was Paul's preference that women not be allowed to speak. He did not say "Do not suffer a woman to teach," he said "I do not suffer a woman to teach." Clearly this was a preference and not a command.
And she spoke in the Temple.
It was Paul's preference that women not be allowed to speak. He did not say "Do not suffer a woman to teach," he said "I do not suffer a woman to teach." Clearly this was a preference and not a command.
You don't know what age Timothy was when he stopped being taught by his mother and grandmother. Paul held them in high regard and gave them credit for Timothy's knowledge of the scriptures.Pastor Larry said:
2Ti 1:5 when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.
Because Lois and Eunice were devout Jewish women. Of course they went to the Temple to worship.
Is she allowed to pray, prophesy, sing? Does she do these things in silence?
Which is obviously a whole lot different than exercising authority or teaching.
"All Scripture is God-breathed." I am not making that up. God breathed this out for us, and it is not up to you to deny it. Paul was speaking from apostolic authority and that is a mandate for the church.
Yes. Exactly, You don't know what age Timothy was when he stopped being taught. So don't pretend like you do.
That's not the issue. You said you were sure that they taught him in the temple, and I was asking based on what. You have given no answer. The truth is that the Bible nowhere in anyway leads us to believe that women taught men in the church. It is against the command of Scripture.
Yes, neither of which is teaching or exercising authority.
Is this rhetorical? Why in the world would you ask it?
You are calling the Scriptures wrong. That is unacceptable. The Scriptures are clear on this and it is not our prerogative to deny them for our own personal ideas. The "silence" in 1 Tim 2 is in the context of teaching men and exercising authority. Why not simply accept what it says rather than deny it?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Pastor Larry said:
Anna was teaching those who sought redemption of the Christ. She was teaching... in the Temple. There is no denying that. It is in black and white in the Word of God.
Had it been a command of God, Paul would not have had the need to include the pronoun "I" in 1 Timothy 2:12. He would have just said 'Do not."
Um, you must have a strange Bible. The word used there is elalei, from laleo, to speak. The word for teach is didasko, and it's not there. So as you say, it is in black and white, and you can read it yourself. It merely says that she spoke of him. She did not do it in the church (which did not yet exist), and she seems merely to have talked to the people coming in. This is yet another clear case of you simply making stuff up, like you did with the whole "eating with sinners" thing.
That is perhaps worse exegesis than you tried above. Should we apply that in 1 Cor 11:3 where Paul says, "I want you to understand"? Does that mean that we really don't have to understand, but it only expresses Paul's desire?
How about 1 Cor 15:50, where Paul says, "I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." Does that mean that flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God? Can we discount it because Paul says "I say this"?
How about 1 Cor 7:12, where Paul says, "But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her." Should we just throw that out?
I could multiply these examples until way past the post limit. And given your method, you would throw them out because Paul said, "I say."
Quite frankly, SFIC, you are in direct denial of the biblical doctrine of inspiration. God breathed out what Paul said. That's enough.
I believe that Paul is forbidding women to take the authoritative role of teacher/pastor, which is to have authority over the church. I do not believe he means that women cannot share their knowledge of scripture with others. If he means that women are forbidden to share their knowledge, then he contradicts the Bible in many places where it is clear that women taught the scriptures to men and in doing so, led men to Christ.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
If I am speaking of Christ to a crowd, I am teaching them... just as Anna was doing.
Do you really think Anna's speaking was just that? That she wasn't teaching? Wow!
These people were seeking redemption and Anna spoke of Christ to them. If that isn't teaching, what is?
Ok, God breathed out what Paul said. Does that include:
1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
So, if God actually breathed out what Paul said, then God has caused Paul to lie in this passage... making God a liar, for He caused Paul to say He did not say it.
When Paul says "I speak," or "I do not," he speaks of his own preferences and doing.
Do you really think Anna's speaking was just that? That she wasn't teaching? Wow!
These people were seeking redemption and Anna spoke of Christ to them. If that isn't teaching, what is?
Ok, God breathed out what Paul said. Does that include:
1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
So, if God actually breathed out what Paul said, then God has caused Paul to lie in this passage... making God a liar, for He caused Paul to say He did not say it.
When Paul says "I speak," or "I do not," he speaks of his own preferences and doing.
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We need to get past this. Truth is not really personal. What you believe is really quite irrelevant. What is true is what the issue is.
I agree. That is exactly my point. He is not forbidding women from teaching women with authority, or from sharing their knowledge of the Scripture. He is forbidding them from teaching or exercising authority over men.
I am not aware of many people where this is even obscure, much less clear. The only place seems to be Aquila and Priscilla, where the two of them together taught Apollos. And notice that it was the two of them together.
So we really need to get past the existentialism of "what it means to me" and just get to the text which could not be more clear.
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