13 Things a Lost Person Cannot Do

[BobRyan]

The regenerated heart - the one that is born again - can not be described as man alone on the inside with Christ on the outside seeking to be let in.

Being apart from Christ - is to be unregenerate - not-born-again, lost. By all accounts.

The point remains - God has ENABLED the one who is APART from Christ to HEAR and to OPEN - and He does this through his "DRAWING" of ALL MANKIND.

He ENABLES what total depravity DISABLES - and He does so for "ALL mankind" John 12:32.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As we saw from the definition - ONE of the meaning is to motivate. The Calvinist notion that "Drawing ALL mankind to ME" is "to dragg screaming and kicking by force" - is not as open and shut as some have proposed.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[Rev. G]

No kicking and screaming - corpses don't kick and scream.

 

[Monergist]

Bob, friend, we have repeatedly shown that we do not believe that God drags someone "kicking and screaming" into what they do not want. Why do you insist that we do?

Was Lazarus brought kicking and screaming from the tomb? No. Rather God spoke and brought him to life. Same story in regeneration, He speaks--we respond. He makes us alive: That simple.

 

[KenH]

I am afraid that a lot of people fail to see the picture of salvation in the resurrection of Lazarus from the tomb. Unfortunately, they restrict it to only having an eschatological meaning.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
I am afraid that a lot of people fail to see the picture of salvation in the resurrection of Lazarus from the tomb. Unfortunately, they restrict it to only having an eschatological meaning.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

Why see a picture of salvation here? Christ didn't talk about it. I can't find any reference within the context that would connect Lazarus' raising with salvation.

 

[Helen]

If a person who is dead spiritually is therefore spiritually incapable of receiving any input or responding to it then not only does hell have no meaning whatsoever, but who on earth what God talking to in Isaiah 1:14, or Jesus talking to in Matthew 11:28-30?

The mistake I see Calvinists make consistently is to confuse spiritual death with what we see on this side of physical death. We see a body that has been left by the soul/spirit and which will immediately start to decay. That is the RESULT of death, but that is not death itself. The death is the separation from the body. It is leaving the body behind. The person him or herself is still quite aware and functioning spiritually.

In John 17:4, Jesus defines eternal life as KNOWING the Father and the Son, not simply being conscious of God. The "knowing" there is the same type of "knowing" Jesus uses in Matthew 7:23, when He tells the false teachers, "I never knew you." Of course He knew them in the sense of being acquainted with who they were -- after all, He created them! The knowing is rather the knowing which comes with an intimate relationship. So if spiritual life, or eternal life, is having this intimate knowing of God, then spiritual death, or eternal death, is being apart from that intimacy, and only being aware of God without having a relationship with Him. It has nothing to do with some kind of spiritual unconsciousness. We also see this in reference to the story Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was able to see, hear, feel -- he was quite cognizant of his surroundings and of mental processes and communication.

A person who is spiritually dead is NOT spiritually unconscious. He is, rather, separated from God and not part of an intimate relationship with Him. He is aware and functioning and can respond.

 

[KenH]

Without seeing the soteriological picture in the resurrection of Lazarus, it would be difficult to understand the Biblical truth of Calvinism. Difficult but by no means impossible.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Rev. G]

Lazarus is a good picture, but I think there is a better analogy in the OT. The Valley of Dry Bones (Ezekiel 37). How interesting that the New Covenant is found in Ez. 36, then following the description of that covenant is this.

Bones. Bleached by the scorching sun. The command to the prophet is to "prophesy to the bones" and to "prophesy to the breath" [ruach / 'spirit']. Sounds like good, old-fashioned evangelistic methodology. Preach the Word and pray to the Spirit, knowing that He uses His Word and that He will bring life!

Amen!

Rev. G

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Without seeing the soteriological picture in the resurrection of Lazarus, it would be difficult to understand the Biblical truth of Calvinism. Difficult but by no means impossible.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

And yet you don't explain it! You just pass it by. Can you explain further the proof of the necessity of a soteriological reading of the LAzarus accound?

 

[BobRyan]

Clearly - Christ did not "draw Lazarus" to Himself - He raised him from the dead.

But in Matt 11 He Draws "Come to Me all who are weary and heavy ladened".

When He says "I will DRAW all mankind unto Me" - He is not saying "ALL mankind will get eternal life" - but rather 'ALL mankind is being DRAWN to ME".

Difficult as it may seem - that is how scripture paints the picture. Though I understand the plight of those that must get "All mankind given eternal life" instead of "drawn".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rev. G]

But in Matt 11 He Draws "Come to Me all who are weary and heavy ladened".

Context.

Matthew 11:25-29 - At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was Your good pleasure. All things have been committed to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Father exept the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

 

[BobRyan]

Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

A very good example of what Christ did NOT say to Lazarus or to any dead person. It is a call to choose Christ - complete with "arguments" for why that choice is a good one.

Notice also Christ did not stand at the door of Lazarus' tomb and knock saying "IF anyone on the inside hears my voice and OPENs the door THEN I will come in and fellowship with Him".

ALL those scenarios are based on the one on the inside being ENABLED to "act". This is the "call" that we see consistently in scripture. We do not see Christ saying "Hey dead person I just made you alive now please choose me, you already are resting in Me, we are already in fellowship and you are already forgiven - no need to confess your sin and then be forgiven of them - you start out forgiven" as Calvinism asserts.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 12, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[russell55]

no need to confess your sin and then be forgiven of them - you start out forgiven" as Clavinism asserts.

Huh???? Have you really been posting here as long as you have and you don't know that this is not what Calvinism asserts?

The elect are "children of wrath (not forgiven) just like the rest...until God, who is rich in mercy...." brings them to repentance, at which point they confess their sins and are forgiven. True confession is necessary for the elect to be forgiven and justified.

 

[BobRyan]

So your point is that the lost - do not suddenly "come to life" and "discover that they are born-again and made alive in Christ, accepted in the beloved, and in fellowship with Christ - no separation".

But INSTEAD they "come to the point of being ABLE to accept eternal life in Christ, Accept the new birth offer, respond to the call to repent and THEN receive forgiveness and adoption into the body of Christ"?

You are sounding like an Arminian.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 09, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[russell55]

But INSTEAD they "come to the point of being ABLE to accept eternal life in Christ, Accept the new birth offer, respond to the call to repent and THEN receive forgiveness and adoption into the body of Christ"?

Not exactly. There is a point in the life of each elect person when the Holy Spirit effectually calls them. (This effectual call may or may not involve regeneration or new birth. Viewpoints on this differ among Calvinists.) As a result of this effectual call, the elect person repents, believes, and in response to this repentance and faith is forgiven, justified, adopted, and then begins the process of sanctification.

You are sounding like an Arminian.

Not really. I have yet to meet a Calvinist who doesn't believe that in the order of salvation repentance and faith precede being forgiven, justified and adopted, and that we are forgiven, justified and adopted through faith.

[ November 10, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[shilo]

quote by Bob

no need to confess your sin and then be forgiven of them - you start out forgiven" as Clavinism asserts.

Quote by russell

Huh???? Have you really been posting here as long as you have and you don't know that this is not what Calvinism asserts?

What Bob Said is Exactly what Calvinism asserts..
If men are dead in sin to the extent that they are unable to belive on Jesus Christ of their own Free will, yet God has "elected" some to salvation, atoned for their sin, and wills for them to be saved, then the only way any Calvinist can and will be saved is by quietly waiting for God to over power their will and to regenerate the person so they can repent and believe the Gospel. Therefore, in the Calvinist system, believing on Christ becomes the result of Salvation not the cause of it. Sproul said plainly

"The reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his Heart must be changed. He must be born again"

He also said that "Regeneration precedes Faith" and is a Cardinal point of the refomed theology.

To Quote other Calvinist as well:

"A person is regenerated before he belives" (Best,Simple faith p. 34)

"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he belives i Christ becasue he is saved" (Boettner, Predestination, p.101)

"A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated" (Pink, The Holy Spirit p.55)

"When a man savingly believes, the saving power of Christ hs already deliverd him form his state of spiritual death"
(Gunn, p.8)

"We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again in order that we may believe" (Sproul Chosen by God p.73)

I have yet to meet a Calvinist who doesn't believe that in the order of salvation repentance and faith precede being forgiven, justified and adopted, and that we are forgiven, justified and adopted through faith

Well now you have..all these men seem to think that you're saved before Anything else..Are they putting out lies about the doctrines of Calvinism?? Are they misleading people??

(This effectual call may or may not involve regeneration or new birth. Viewpoints on this differ among Calvinists.)

Strange you should say that because The "Effectual Call" is the Consequense of God's eternal election. which is of course Irresistable Grace. And According to Irresistable Grace.. you can't resist the Holy Spirit so you're overpowered/born again/regenerated.. AGAINST your will in order that you can believe and have faith in Chirst..

Calvinist can't agree on if the effectual call involves the new birth or regeneration??? If you can't agree on effectual calling..AKA, Irrisitable grace..how can you be sure that you're saved??? what a lot of confusion!

[ November 10, 2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

[KenH]

It's not a matter of being saved against our will in a generic sense. God gives His people a new heart with a new will so that he comes to Christ in repentance and faith.

If you define regeneration as being salvation, then I agree based on your definition that a person is saved before he believes. But my definition of salvation includes the whole conversion process, which includes repentance and faith, not just one aspect of it.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[russell55]

Well now you have..all these men seem to think that you're saved before Anything else..Are they putting out lies about the doctrines of Calvinism?? Are they misleading people??

No. They see the order of salvation as going exactly as I said in my post: the effectual call (which for them includes regeneration or being born again) leads to faith, by which we are forgiven, justified and then adopted. No one is forgiven or justified or adopted before they have faith. And that was the part of Bob's post that I corrected.

Whether we are regenerated before or after we believe has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

[BobRyan]

Russell
There is a point in the life of each elect person when the Holy Spirit effectually calls them. (This effectual call may or may not involve regeneration or new birth. Viewpoints on this differ among Calvinists.)

That is the Arminian view - Christ effectively DRAWS all unto Himself - and by so doing He effectively ENABLES them to CHOOSE life. This effective DRAWING does not regenerate them - but they can choose life and God then freely regenerates them - AND forgives them of sin. By choosing to confess - to repent - they are in a position where God chooses to freely grant them forgiveness as He promises in His Word "IF we confess Our sins HE IS faithful to forgive".

God IS faithful to forgiven - faithfully RESPONDING as promised.

In Christ,

Bob