15 Nisan

[JonC]

If a Friday, Jesus would have been in the tomb, less than 24 hours.[/QUQUOTNot necessarily less than 24 hours (Friday night to Sunday morning), but certainly less than what we consider three days and three nights.
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The thing is, Jesus would have been in the tomb for three days and three nights by Jewish counting.

We run into this in the OT as well. Ester fasted for three days and three nights......but not by our counting.

If Jesus was laid in the tomb before sunset on Friday and resurrected on Sunday morning then this would be three days and three nights ("night-days").

If Jesus was laid in the tomb Wed. before sunset and resurrected early Sunday then it woukd be five days and five nights ("night-days").

Thursday would be four days and four nights ("night-days").

It depends on what system we use to count (Jewish or Western).


Kinda cool.


Every movie I've seen showing Peter's denial has his denials occurring before a rooster crows. But they didn't have any roosters in Jerusalem (purity concerns....those pecking beasts). The reference is the three horns as the day started for Temple rituals.


It is interesting to study 1st century practices and consider our traditions. We sometimes have three wise men as well.


Ultimately we have to consider Jewish practices in the 1st century. That is one atea where @37818 fails.

The Jews pushed the evening to afternoon (apparently when it suited their rituals....and to accommodate not being in one central location).

We also read that Mary went to the tomb when it was morning AND still dark (impossible in the OT).



But I agree that Friday only works with the Jewish "night-day" and not a Western day and night.

In the end it doesn't matter. Christians can believe a rooster sounded, the Jews used our idea of day and night, there were 3 wise men or the "cock crowed" (the sound from the Temple), they observed a Jewish "night-day" with a part counting as a whole, and there were 3 gifts mentioned. Doesn't change the Resurrection.

 

[timtofly]

Anyway....a Friday crucifixion works only if we use a Jewish timekeeping. A Wednesday crucifixion works only if we use a Westerm timekeeping. One may be able to force a Thursday crucifixion, but the problem is it would be later in the day than Scripture seems to allow.

Are you saying the calendar is wrong in placing the 15th day in every year of the first century?

 

[timtofly]

If Jesus was laid in the tomb before sunset on Friday and resurrected on Sunday morning then this would be three days and three nights ("night-days").

If Jesus was laid in the tomb Wed. before sunset and resurrected early Sunday then it woukd be five days and five nights ("night-days").

Thursday would be four days and four nights ("night-days").

It depends on what system we use to count (Jewish or Western).


Kinda cool.

Except as I pointed out, you can only count the 2 days of Saturday, ie 2 12 hour periods. You cannot say Jesus was even in the tomb past 6pm on Saturday. No one knows.

And by the way, 3 days and 3 nights is 6 day/nights. They were not saying 3 days, which included the nights. I am not sure what western thought has to do with it. If they said 3 evenings, how would they only get 36 hours? 3 evenings from today, would still be 3 evenings, no?

 

[JonC]

Are you saying the calendar is wrong in placing the 15th day in every year of the first century?

Which calendar? The Biblical calendar (e.g., Exodus) based on lunar observation, the Selucid calendar, the calendar exiled Jews used in exile, the 12th century lunisolar calendar?

I wouldn't say any of them are wrong, just that they are different.

I would think the computer increased accuracy. Two weeks of clouds wouldn't alter observation, for example.

What I am saying is that we do not have information about the exact date used in the 1st century. But regardless we have to rely on 1st century practices because that was their custom.

 

[timtofly]

In the end it doesn't matter. Christians can believe a rooster sounded, the Jews used our idea of day and night, there were 3 wise men or the "cock crowed" (the sound from the Temple), they observed a Jewish "night-day" with a part counting as a whole, and there were 3 gifts mentioned. Doesn't change the Resurrection.

As a side note off topic. In 2 Peter 3, Peter was comparing a 12 hour period as equal to a thousand years, by Hebrew thought processes. In Psalms, the author added a watch in the night. That could be another 6 hours to make it 18 hours. Unless a watch was the entire 12 hours. I agree their concept of time was different, based on 6 hours of work. Relating also to the 6 days of work. 6 days, 6 hours a day, for a normal well to do worker. Others had to work longer. Or some hired at different times, because more laborers were needed. The fact that God started the day in the evening set His people apart for centuries.

 

[timtofly]

Which calendar? The Biblical calendar (e.g., Exodus) based on lunar observation, the Selucid calendar, the calendar exiled Jews used in exile, the 12th century lunisolar calendar?

I wouldn't say any of them are wrong, just that they are different.

I would think the computer increased accuracy. Two weeks of clouds wouldn't alter observation, for example.

What I am saying is that we do not have information about the exact date used in the 1st century. But regardless we have to rely on 1st century practices because that was their custom.

Any online computer generated calendar. Have you read about the metonic cycle? The moon has always been fairly predictable. And correctable several times in one's lifetime.

 

[JonC]

Except as I pointed out, you can only count the 2 days of Saturday, ie 2 12 hour periods. You cannot say Jesus was even in the tomb past 6pm on Saturday. No one knows.

And by the way, 3 days and 3 nights is 6 day/nights. They were not saying 3 days, which included the nights. I am not sure what western thought has to do with it. If they said 3 evenings, how would they only get 36 hours? 3 evenings from today, would still be 3 evenings, no?

Except a part of a day counts as a whole "night-day". Ester fasted for two days and this is also 3 days and nights per the OT.

Friday evening (before sundown) = 1 "day and night"
Saturday = 1 "day and night"
Sunday (after sundown Saturday) = 1 "day and night"

It isn't difficult, but it is not how we would count.

BUT if the gospels were recording information using a Western counting then the crucifixion would have to be on a Wendsday (counting partial days as a whole, but not necessarily nights).

I, personally, believe that they used a Hebrew notion rather than a Western one. But who knows.

It is the same regarding the rooster crowing (where roosters were prohibited). It refers to the "cockcrow" which was early morning when the instrument was blown three times to announce the preparation of the Temple.

It doesn't bother me if people think it was a rooster. It changes nothing in regards to the point of the passage.

 

[JonC]

Any online computer generated calendar. Have you read about the metonic cycle? The moon has always been fairly predictable. And correctable several times in one's lifetime.

Yet in the 12th century AD the mathematical lunisolar calendar was developed to keep closer to following the Law.

In OT times that first sliver of moon was official when reported by two different parties.

Hillel the Elder developed the calendar most closely associated with the 1st century. It wasn't a strulu t lunar calendar (it was adjusted to make sure, for example, Yom Kappur woukd not fall adjacent to a Sabbath).

Then you have the 12th century calendar.

That said, I have no problem with whatever scheme one uses.