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1JN.2:2...A.W.Pink

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
1 John 2:2
THERE is one passage more than any other which is I appealed to by those who believe in universal redemption, and which at first sight appears to teach that Christ died for the whole human race. We have therefore decided to give it a detailed examination and exposition.
"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). This is the passage which, apparently, most favors the Arminian view of the Atonement, yet if it be considered attentively it will be seen that it does so only in appearance, and not in reality. Below we offer a number of
conclusive proofs to show that this verse does not teach that Christ has propitiated God on behalf of all the sins of all men.

In the first place, the fact that this verse opens with "and" necessarily links it with what has gone before. We, therefore, give a literal word for word translation of
1 John 2:1 from Bagster's Interlinear: "Little children my, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin; and if any one should sin, a Paraclete we have with the Father, Jesus Christ (the) righteous." It will thus be seen that the apostle John is here writing to and about the saints of God. His immediate purpose was two-fold: first, to communicate a message that would keep God's children from sinning; second, to supply comfort and assurance to those who might sin, and, in consequence, be cast down and fearful that the issue would prove fatal. He, therefore, makes known to them the provision which God has made for just such an emergency. This we find at the end of verse 1 and throughout verse 2. The ground of comfort is twofold: let the downcast and repentant believer (1 John 1:9) be assured that, first, he has an "Advocate with the Father;" second, that this Advocate is "the propitiation for our sins" Now believers only may take comfort from this, for they alone have an "Advocate," for them alone is Christ the propitiation, as is proven by linking the Propitiation ("and") with "the Advocate!"

In the second place, if other passages in the New Testament which speak of "propitiation," he compared with 1 John 2:2, it will be found that it is strictly limited in its scope. For example, in Romans 3:25 we read that God set forth Christ "a propitiation through faith in His blood." If Christ is a propitiation "through faith," then He is not a
"propitiation" to those who have no faith! Again, in Hebrews 2:17 we read, "To make propitiation for the sins of the people." (Heb. 2:17, R.V.)

In the third place, who are meant when John says, "He is the propitiation for our sins?" We answer, Jewish believers. And a part of the proof on which we base this assertion we now submit to the careful attention of the reader. In Galatians 2:9 we are told that John, together with James and Cephas, were apostles "unto the circumcision" (i.e. Israel). In keeping with this, the Epistle of James is addressed to "the twelve tribes, which are scattered abroad" (1:1). So, the first Epistle of Peter
is addressed to "the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion" (1 Pet. 1:1, R. V.). And John also is writing to saved Israelites, but for
saved Jews and saved Gentiles.
Some of the evidences that John is writing to saved Jews are as follows. (a) In the opening verse he says of Christ, "Which we have seen with our eyes.… and our hands have handled." How impossible it would have been for the Apostle Paul to have commenced any of his epistles to Gentile saints with such language!

(b) "Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning" (1 John 2:7). The "beginning" here referred to is the beginning of the public manifestation of Christ—in proof compare 1:1; 2:13, etc. Now these believers the apostle tells us, had the "old commandment" from the
beginning. This was true of Jewish believers, but it was not true of Gentile believers.

(c) "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him from the beginning" (2:13). Here, again, it is evident that it is Jewish believers that are in view.

(d) "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us" (2:18, 19).

These brethren to whom John wrote had "heard" from Christ Himself that Antichrist should come (see Matthew 24). The "many antichrists" whom John declares "went out from us" were all Jews, for during the first century none but a Jew posed as the Messiah.Therefore, when John says "He is the propitiation for our sins" he can only mean for the sins of Jewish believers.*

In the fourth place, when John added, "And not for ours only, butalso for the whole world", he signified that Christ was the propitiation for the sins of Gentile believers too, for, as previously shown, "the world" is a term contrasted from Israel. This interpretation is unequivocally established by a careful comparison of 1 John 2:2 with
John 11:51, 52, which is a strictly parallel passage: "And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also He should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." Here Caiaphas, under inspiration, made known for whom Jesus should "die." Notice now the correspondency of his prophecy with this declaration of John's:
"He is the propitiation for our (believing Israelites) sins."
"He prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation."
"And not for ours only." "And not for that nation only."
"But also for the whole world"—That is, Gentile believers scattered throughout the earth.
"He should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."

In the fifth place, the above interpretation is confirmed by the fact that no other is consistent or intelligible. If the "whole world" signifies the whole human race, then the first clause and the "also" in the second clause are absolutely meaningless. If Christ is the propitiation for everybody, it would be idle tautology to say, first,
"He is the propitiation for our sins and also for everybody." There could be no "also" if He is the propitiation for the entire human family. Had the apostle meant to affirm that Christ is a universal propitiation he had omitted the first clause of verse 2, and simply said, "He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world."

Confirmatory of "not for ours (Jewish believers) only, but also for the whole world"—Gentile believers, too; compare John 10:16; 17:20.

In the sixth place, our definition of "the whole world" is in perfect accord with other passages in the New Testament. For example:
"Whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the Gospel;which is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:5, 6). Does "all the world" here mean, absolutely and unqualifiedly, all mankind?
Had all the human family heard the Gospel? No; the apostle's obvious meaning is that, the Gospel, instead of being confined to the land of Judea, had gone abroad, without restraint, into Gentile lands.
So in Romans 1:8: "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world". The apostle is here referring to the faith of these Roman saints being spoken of in a way of commendation. But certainly all mankind did not so speak of their faith! It was the whole world of believers that he was referring to! In Revelation 12:9 we read of Satan "which deceiveth the whole world." But again this expression cannot be understood as a universal one, for Matthew 24:24 tells us that Satan does not and cannot "deceive" God's elect. Here it is "the whole
world" of unbelievers.

In the seventh place, to insist that "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2signifies the entire human race is to undermine the very foundations of our faith. If Christ is the propitiation for those that are lost equally as much as for those that are saved, then what assurance have we that believers too may not be lost? If Christ is the propitiation for those now in hell, what guarantee have I that I may not end in hell?

The blood-shedding of the incarnate Son of God is the only thing which can keep any one out of hell, and if many for whom that precious blood made propitiation are now in the awful place of the damned, then may not that blood prove in efficacious for me! Away with such a God-dishonoring thought.
However men may quibble and wrest the Scriptures, one thing is certain: The Atonement is no failure. God will not allow that precious and costly sacrifice to fail in accomplishing, completely, that which it was designed to effect. Not a drop of that holy blood was shed in vain. In the last great Day there shall stand forth no disappointed and defeated Saviour, but One who "shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied" (Isa. 53:11). These are not our words, but the infallible assertion of Him who declares, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 64:10). Upon this impregnable rock we take our stand. Let others rest on the sands of human speculation and twentieth-century theorizing if they wish. That is their business. But to God they will yet have to render an account.
For our part we had rather be railed at as a narrow-minded, out-of- date, hyper-Calvinist, than be found repudiating God's truth by reducing the Divinely-efficacious atonement to a mere fiction.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
[Matthew 23:13-33 NKJV]
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in [yourselves], nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged [to perform it].' 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged [to perform it].' 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier [matters] of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead [men's] bones and all uncleanness. 28 "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 "and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt]. 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?


Are we sure these "brood of vipers" of eight "woes" are "My little children" [1 John 2:1] that John was speaking to and Jesus is "an Advocate with the Father" for? ;)
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Once again we have a strawman argument against a misrepresentation of 1 John 2:2.

Here is the NASB translation as footnoted and with the added italics removed.


and He Himself is the means of reconciliation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

To whom is the letter written, just what group or audience is being addressed. The answer is not Jewish believers, but rather believers whether Jew or Gentile. The claim it only addressed Jews is an obvious agenda driven false claim.

Next, "Hilasmos" describes Jesus as the "means of reconciliation" not the action of a verb.

Next Jesus is the means of reconciliation through His blood, the sacrifice of His life provided the means , through faith, of reconciliation. No one "receives" reconciliation except through faith that is credited by God as righteousness.

The whole world refers to the whole of humanity, Jews and Gentiles. 2 Peter 2:1 teaches Christ died not only for those to be saved, but also for those never to be saved.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are we sure these "brood of vipers" of eight "woes" are "My little children" [1 John 2:1] that John was speaking to and Jesus is "an Advocate with the Father" for? ;)
When John writes 'my liitle children,' surely it is clear that he is writing to believers? When our Lord addresses the scribes and Pharisees as a 'brood of vipers,' surely it is obvious that he is NOT speaking to believers? What the two groups had in common was that, according to Pink, they were all Jewish.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
1 John 2:2 speaks of Christ as the Propitiation for all human sin. As such it is neither limited or unlimited in scope.

Claiming universal atonement or limited atonement based on that passage is to change the passage.

@Van is right that the verse tells us that Christ is the means by which men are reconciled to God.

People who remain lost have no effect on Christ being the (and the only) means by which men are reconciled to God.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
1 John 2:2 speaks of Christ as the Propitiation for all human sin. As such it is neither limited or unlimited in scope.

Claiming universal atonement or limited atonement based on that passage is to change the passage.

@Van is right that the verse tells us that Christ is the means by which men are reconciled to God.

People who remain lost have no effect on Christ being the (and the only) means by which men are reconciled to God.
Here both JohnC and Van repeat their error due to a complete failure to understand the very basics of the biblical salvation accomplished at the cross.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the only Propitiation for the elect of God. Everyone else will suffer the wrath of God. That wrath was put on Jesus as the sin bearer of the elect. They deny truth 24/7
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
If Christ is the propitiation for all human sin, then God is propitiated in respect of all human sin. Otherwise Christ's propitiation has failed to propitiate God, which seems unlikely.
Just saying.
No. The reason is the English language, even here in America.

If I say vaccine A is the cure for disease A this has nothing to do with individuals being cured.

Christ IS the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

This is why John Calvin could hold his views snd still insist that the world in that passage excludes nobody.


Think of it as Christ being an atoning sacrifice. He is the atoning sacrifice.

You are not thinking of Christ as being the Propitiation but of God's wrath being propitiated.

(And really not of His wrath being propitiated but of us escaping that wrath by God pouring it on Jesus in our place).

Diagram the sentence.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Here both JohnC and Van repeat their error due to a complete failure to understand the very basics of the biblical salvation accomplished at the cross.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the only Propitiation for the elect of God. Everyone else will suffer the wrath of God. That wrath was put on Jesus as the sin bearer of the elect. They deny truth 24/7
Diagram the sentence.

Jesus is the Proputiation for all human sin. There is no other way. There is no other propitiation.

He IS the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. There is no other lamb. There is no other way.

Dude....it is basic language. A 3rd grader could do it (we had to do it in the 3rd grade). Diagram the sentence. Stop changing Scripture to meet your theories.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Otherwise Christ's propitiation has failed to propitiate God, which seems unlikely.
Just saying.
Actually, you believe Christ failed to propitiate God (you have stated that Jesus experienced God's wrath...that is substitution NOT propitiation).

A propitiation is something that regains favor, it reconciles. You are talking about God punishing our sins on Jesus. That is substitution.

A propitiation is not a substitute. Words have meaning.
 
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Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No. The reason is the English language, even here in America.

If I say vaccine A is the cure for disease A this has nothing to do with individuals being cured.

Christ IS the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

This is why John Calvin could hold his views snd still insist that the world in that passage excludes nobody.
Nonsense! If I were to say that dying was the propitiation for sin, you might have a point. But God Himself set Christ forth as a propitiation for sins in Christ's blood, so we can be sure that His blood will propitiate God. Otherwise we can not trust God in anything.
Think of it as Christ being an atoning sacrifice. He is the atoning sacrifice.

You are not thinking of Christ as being the Propitiation but of God's wrath being propitiated.
It doesn't really matter. If God has set Christ forth as an atoning sacrifice, Christ's sacrifice is going to atone.
(And really not of His wrath being propitiated but of us escaping that wrath by God pouring it on Jesus in our place).
:rolleyes: No again. God's wrath is not to do with His personal feelings, but with His justice. It is a legal wrath (Psalm 7:11). And Christ taking our sins upon Himself and paying the penalty due in full enables God to be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Actually, you believe Christ failed to propitiate God (you have stated that Jesus experienced God's wrath...that is substitution NOT propitiation).

A propitiation is something that regains favor, it reconciles. You are talking about God punishing our sins on Jesus. That is substitution.

A propitiation is not a substitute. Words have meaning.
:rolleyes: Just read your Bible.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
:rolleyes: Just read your Bible.
I have.

The Bible tells us that God's righteousness is not the law itself. The law is a manifestation of God's righteousness. It shows us where we fall short of God's glory because it shows us our sins.

But sins are the fruits of a mind set on the flesh.

You are trying to make redemption far too superficial.

Yes, Calvinism is easy-believism. But that is not a good thing. It is too superficial. Replacing God's Word with Calvinism only produces a superficial easy-believism myth.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Nonsense! If I were to say that dying was the propitiation for sin, you might have a point. But God Himself set Christ forth as a propitiation for sins in Christ's blood, so we can be sure that His blood will propitiate God. Otherwise we can not trust God in anything.

It doesn't really matter. If God has set Christ forth as an atoning sacrifice, Christ's sacrifice is going to atone.

:rolleyes: No again. God's wrath is not to do with His personal feelings, but with His justice. It is a legal wrath (Psalm 7:11). And Christ taking our sins upon Himself and paying the penalty due in full enables God to be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus
Ahhhj. Pulling out the old strawman arguments. You must be getting desperate.

What you miss is God's words. I am not sure why (where exactly) you concluded Scripture insufficient except that it be in your judicial philosophy.


God's righteousness is not the law. The law is a manifestation of His righteousness, but so is salvation. His righteousness does not change.

The law addresses the fruits. Either we meet the righteousness expressed through the law or we have sinned. The law shows us our sins.

But our sins is not the problem. The problem is we fall short of the glory of God.

We need to be reborn, recreated. We need a new heart.

You say "How can that be?" because you have the mindset of the pharisees. You cannot understand that men cannot be made righteous through the law and are stuck in a superficial faith.

This is why we can read my position stated in the text of Scripture but your faith is foreign to the Bible. Your faith is not actually related to Christianity. It is a secular philosophy applied to the Cross in order to re-form Roman Catholic doctrine.

If you would set aside your philosophy and simply read your Bible you would find that it makes sense and is complete without your theories.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you have, it doesn't show, and you don't show it by actually referencing the Bible
The Bible tells us that God's righteousness is not the law itself.
Where? In Romans 3:21? That is a very superficial understanding of the verse unless you explain it properly and include verse 31 in your exposition. To try and separate God's word from God's law is not as easy as you seem to think.
The law is a manifestation of God's righteousness. It shows us where we fall short of God's glory because it shows us our sins.

But sins are the fruits of a mind set on the flesh.

You are trying to make redemption far too superficial.

Yes, Calvinism is easy-believism. But that is not a good thing. It is too superficial. Replacing God's Word with Calvinism only produces a superficial easy-believism myth.
:rolleyes: Well ya, boo and sucks to you too! You really are not worth discussing with. Can't you go and annoy someone else?
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ahhhj. Pulling out the old strawman arguments. You must be getting desperate.

What you miss is God's words. I am not sure why (where exactly) you concluded Scripture insufficient except that it be in your judicial philosophy.


God's righteousness is not the law. The law is a manifestation of His righteousness, but so is salvation. His righteousness does not change.

The law addresses the fruits. Either we meet the righteousness expressed through the law or we have sinned. The law shows us our sins.

But our sins is not the problem. The problem is we fall short of the glory of God.

We need to be reborn, recreated. We need a new heart.

You say "How can that be?" because you have the mindset of the pharisees. You cannot understand that men cannot be made righteous through the law and are stuck in a superficial faith.

This is why we can read my position stated in the text of Scripture but your faith is foreign to the Bible. Your faith is not actually related to Christianity. It is a secular philosophy applied to the Cross in order to re-form Roman Catholic doctrine.

If you would set aside your philosophy and simply read your Bible you would find that it makes sense and is complete without your theories.
More nonsense. People are justified (declared righteous) through the cross, and in no other way. Why do you think Paul declared to the Corinthian Christians, 'for I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.'
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Nonsense! If I were to say that dying was the propitiation for sin, you might have a point. But God Himself set Christ forth as a propitiation for sins in Christ's blood, so we can be sure that His blood will propitiate God. Otherwise we can not trust God in anything.

It doesn't really matter. If God has set Christ forth as an atoning sacrifice, Christ's sacrifice is going to atone.

:rolleyes: No again. God's wrath is not to do with His personal feelings, but with His justice. It is a legal wrath (Psalm 7:11). And Christ taking our sins upon Himself and paying the penalty due in full enables God to be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus
Once again a solid post cutting through the nonsense of those who oppose these truths which are part and parcel of the core teaching of all of redemption.The Romans 3 announcement is as the Lord Jesus Christ as the only solution for any person found anywhere in the world that is the object of this work of propitiation ;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.

Only enemies of the gospel, or really poorly misinformed persons would look to put a wedge in what God has joined together
Thanks for remaining solid.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
More nonsense. People are justified (declared righteous) through the cross, and in no other way. Why do you think Paul declared to the Corinthian Christians, 'for I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.'
Nonsense. God will justify us and glorify us. This is not just a declaration. The declaration is in the present pointing to a future reality.

But this is one reason you cannot accept Scripture. You believe you can carry the "old man" into glory.

Your philosophy is wrong. We will be conformed into the image of Christ. We will be made new creations in Christ. We will have died to sin. We really will be made righteous in Christ and glorified. God has predestined us to those things. They will be our reality.

Deny those passages all you want. Your denial does not change God's words.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
If you have, it doesn't show, and you don't show it by actually referencing the Bible
I have. I will again restate my belief on this topic. I do not think it will do any good because you do not see it as referencing any Scripture and @Zaatar71 already called it "foolishness". And I understand why the two of you believe it foolishness. I would worry if you understood.



Anyway, I repost my belief just so the thread remains current and members can see where we disagree.

God created Adam from the dust, planted a Garden and placed Adam there. God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil . God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would die. Adam transgressed God’s command and his eyes were opened. God told Adam that because of his transgression he would work the land (the land was cursed) until he died, for he was dust and to dust he would return. God told the Serpent that he would put enmity between him and the woman, and between their offspring, that He would crush its head and he would strike His heel.

Adam had become like God, knowing good and evil. So that he would not take from the Tree of Life and live forever, God cast Adam out of the Garden, back to the place from which he was created.
Through Adam’s sin death entered the world and spread to all man, for all have sinned. Sin was in the world before God gave the Law, but sin was not charged against people as a transgression as they did not break a command. Nevertheless, death reigned even where there was no law because of sin.

Just as through the disobedience of one man, Adam the many were made sinners , so also through the obedience of the one man, Christ, the many will be made righteous.

The wages of sin is death, for sin produces death. Death spread to all because all have sinned. It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. I believe that God became man (truly man) like us but without sin. He bore our sins bodily on the cross. God became one of us so that we would become like Him and share in His glory.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is life in Christ Jesus. Jesus bore our sins bodily, He died for our sins, He was made sin for us. Men esteemed Him as stricken by God but it is by His stripes we were healed.

God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation. He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It pleased God to crush Him, He died by the means of the wicked, but this was God's predetermined plan.

Christ became a life giving Spirit. Although we die so shall we live. God recreates us in Chriat and conformed us into the image of Christ. In Christ there is no condemnation and we escape the wrath to come
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nonsense. God will justify us and glorify us. This is not just a declaration. The declaration is in the present pointing to a future reality.

But this is one reason you cannot accept Scripture. You believe you can carry the "old man" into glory.

Your philosophy is wrong. We will be conformed into the image of Christ. We will be made new creations in Christ. We will have died to sin. We really will be made righteous in Christ and glorified. God has predestined us to those things. They will be our reality.

Deny those passages all you want. Your denial does not change God's words.
Deny what passages? As usual you don't quote any. You are denying 1 Corinthians 2:2, or at least you are trying to pretend it's not there.
But of course we will be conformed into the image of Christ. We will be made new creations in Christ. We will have died to sin. We really will be made righteous in Christ and glorified. God has predestined us to those things. They will be our reality. And of course we cannot carry the "old man" into glory. Don't be so silly - and so desperate!
As I have said many times, you have your very own theory of penal substitution which bears next to no resemblance to the actual Doctrine.
 
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