1st Century Ms discovered? Wallace says so!

[Greektim]

I understand, sort of, Jonathan.Borland's points and am sympathetic. However exciting the possibility of a first century Markan fragment is, we need to properly understand it and examine it. Just because it is from the first century (and still not extant) doesn't inherently make it better. (and I'm a Critical Text guy!) We need to see it validity, authenticity, and viability for proper placement. There is, potentially, a lot of damage which can still be done.

I'm not excited b/c I think it will confirm any textual variants, although I think it has the chance to do so (I'm not a critical text guy any more than a Byzantine guy). I'm more excited about the prospect of what it could mean for synoptic studies and the dating of Mark.

And let's be honest, Christians fared just fine without a 1st century Mss in our arsenal of arguments. P52 was good enough for many. This is just another arrow in an already overflowing quiver, except this one might either have a poisoned tip making it more deadly or perchance a slight bow making it fly untrue so as to come back to pick us in the head.

 

[jonathan.borland]

And Egypt didn't have rubbish heaps either. I smell a KJVO in the midst.

I'm certainly not KJVO. But for your information, didn't you know that most of the early NT papyri were found in trash dumps in Egypt. Here's an article that will bring you up to date:

AnneMarie Luijendijk, ‘Sacred Scriptures as Trash: Biblical Papyri from Oxyrhynchus’, Vigiliae Christianae 64 (2010), 217-254.

And I was just having a little fun with my cynical "humor." Sorry! I'm delighted for every NT manuscript that God has preserved!

 

[Greektim]

I'm certainly not KJVO. But for your information, didn't you know that most of the early NT papyri were found in trash dumps in Egypt. Here's an article that will bring you up to date:

AnneMarie Luijendijk, ‘Sacred Scriptures as Trash: Biblical Papyri from Oxyrhynchus’, Vigiliae Christianae 64 (2010), 217-254.

And I was just having a little fun with my cynical "humor." Sorry! I'm delighted for every NT manuscript that God has preserved!

Maurice Robinson beat you pointing this out to me

However, the concept of the trash heap is a bit different in the mind of a KJVO. For them, those Mss should be thrown out b/c in their opinion it is not the pure word of God. Little bit different than what Luijendijk argues.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Although Dr. Robinson maintains a minority viewpoint, I think he is the Mac-Daddy of NT textual criticism! As I chose him (with his agreement, obviously) to be my major professor for my Th.M./thesis, I generally concur with his assessment of things. What I hope he will complete is his magnum opus on the Pericope adulterae!

 

[jonathan.borland]

But if it is Mark, then it is probably not Q. Q is the hypothetical document of the writing that Matthew and Luke have in common with each other.

Good catch! I wrote that lying in bed at 1:00 in the morning after burping our two-week old baby and putting him back down. Anyway, it was a joke, and to make it proper I should have said proto-Mark or something.

 

[DaChaser1]

No... if it is truly a 1st century Ms, and considering how long it takes to produce and distribute Mss, it would push the writing of Mark pre-70... at least help that argument. So definitely more than 5-10 years.

And why so negative??? It's like you are mad they may have found this possible 1st century Ms.

And Egypt didn't have rubbish heaps either. I smell a KJVO in the midst.

It may be a pre-markan version... that is a slight possibility (very slight considering the age or veracity has not been confirmed). But if it is Mark, then it is probably not Q. Q is the hypothetical document of the writing that Matthew and Luke have in common with each other. And there are views that put forth a progressive publication of gospel accounts. So there is nothing to be cynical about . You are just demonstrating your incivility.

I feel like you are trashing the field of study I am dedicating my life to. What's with the cynicism? What is the cause for all of this. I've smelled crap that didn't have this kind of fowl odor to it.

wasn't Q JUST though a fictional document thought up by Source document critics who could not understand that the reason the Gospels could be alike so much was that the HS was behind each of them?

Didn't Luke do his own exhaustive historical studies to gather "proof" for the facts presented in the Gospel without regards/need for good ole Q?

 

[jonathan.borland]

Yes, and that's why many don't believe in Q and some, like Eta Linnemann, deny that there even is a Synoptic Problem. I like Dr. Linnemann, BTW. Got to meet her at an ETS meeting one year, along with Jakob van Bruggen, another evangelical I admire.

 

[John of Japan]

Although Dr. Robinson maintains a minority viewpoint, I think he is the Mac-Daddy of NT textual criticism! As I chose him (with his agreement, obviously) to be my major professor for my Th.M./thesis, I generally concur with his assessment of things. What I hope he will complete is his magnum opus on the Pericope adulterae!

Now that's one book I'd buy in a heartbeat!

By the by, you had Greektim going there. :laugh: No offense, Tim! :wavey:

 

[Greektim]

Now that's one book I'd buy in a heartbeat!

By the by, you had Greektim going there. :laugh: No offense, Tim! :wavey:

Gettin' a little worked up... I admit. Turns out, Jon and I may have seen each other on campus. I certainly concur that MAR is a "Mac-Daddy of NT textual criticism."

What was/is your thesis on? When did/are you graduating? I'm doin' my ThM w/ Dr. Black. I have to admit, it was these two individuals that help me gain a much higher view of the Byzantine text-type than I had previously. I'm not a prioritist as my siggie indicates. I like to keep it simple... Sturzian style.

 

[Greektim]

Although Dr. Robinson maintains a minority viewpoint, I think he is the Mac-Daddy of NT textual criticism! As I chose him (with his agreement, obviously) to be my major professor for my Th.M./thesis, I generally concur with his assessment of things. What I hope he will complete is his magnum opus on the Pericope adulterae!

Dude... I googled you! I remember MAR talking about you in class. I think he liked your thesis a lot. Care to state the results of your research. I thought it was very interesting and tedious. How did you manage it? Anyways, did you offer anything to help argue for the PA inclusion???

Jonathan C. Borland, “The Old Latin Tradition of John 7:53-8:11.” Th. M. Thesis,
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC, 2009.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Gettin' a little worked up... I admit. Turns out, Jon and I may have seen each other on campus. I certainly concur that MAR is a "Mac-Daddy of NT textual criticism."

What was/is your thesis on? When did/are you graduating? I'm doin' my ThM w/ Dr. Black. I have to admit, it was these two individuals that help me gain a much higher view of the Byzantine text-type than I had previously. I'm not a prioritist as my siggie indicates. I like to keep it simple... Sturzian style.

I can respect Sturz as his view is rooted in the basic concepts of the most prodigious collator of Greek NT manuscripts ever, Hermann Freiherr von Soden. And that he was a disciple of Colwell doesn't hurt his case, either.

I was on campus from 1998-2001, then for the 2008-09 academic year. I wrote on the Old Latin tradition of John 7:53-8:11. I think google books has it, but it's a pretty boring read unless you're really into that kind of thing.

 

[John of Japan]

Gettin' a little worked up... I admit. Turns out, Jon and I may have seen each other on campus. I certainly concur that MAR is a "Mac-Daddy of NT textual criticism."

What was/is your thesis on? When did/are you graduating?

Alas, I'm just an old missionary with a brilliant son. Paul is ABD on his PhD in NT under Dr. Black. His dissertation title (about half done) is: "The Meaning and Function of kata prognwsin in 1 Peter 1:2--A Study in Lexical Semantics and Social Scientific Criticism."

I'm doin' my ThM w/ Dr. Black. I have to admit, it was these two individuals that help me gain a much higher view of the Byzantine text-type than I had previously. I'm not a prioritist as my siggie indicates. I like to keep it simple... Sturzian style.

I've really enjoyed getting to know both men through our son. They are godly men of scholarship and wisdom.

Boy did old Sturz stirr things up. I really enjoyed his book.

 

[John of Japan]

I can respect Sturz as his view is rooted in the basic concepts of the most prodigious collator of Greek NT manuscripts ever, Hermann Freiherr von Soden. And that he was a disciple of Colwell doesn't hurt his case, either.

I was on campus from 1998-2001, then for the 2008-09 academic year. I wrote on the Old Latin tradition of John 7:53-8:11. I think google books has it, but it's a pretty boring read unless you're really into that kind of thing.

I put it on my wish list and may be able to pick it up someday. I still read Latin some from high school (knock on wood).

 

[DaChaser1]

Dude... I googled you! I remember MAR talking about you in class. I think he liked your thesis a lot. Care to state the results of your research. I thought it was very interesting and tedious. How did you manage it? Anyways, did you offer anything to help argue for the PA inclusion???

Jonathan C. Borland, “The Old Latin Tradition of John 7:53-8:11.” Th. M. Thesis,
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC, 2009.

Just curious...

Are either/both of you Ph.D in your studies yet?

And what was your major emphasis in your studies?

 

[jonathan.borland]

I put it on my wish list and may be able to pick it up someday. I still read Latin some from high school (knock on wood).

Don't. Please let me email you a copy!

 

[jonathan.borland]

Just curious...

Are either/both of you Ph.D in your studies yet?

And what was your major emphasis in your studies?

I have a wife and four kids can't really pursue the Ph.D. degree currently. Now if the yuan would reach parity with the dollar . . . .

 

[John of Japan]

Don't. Please let me email you a copy!

Great! I'll look forward to it. I'll PM my email address to you.

 

[Greektim]

Just curious...

Are either/both of you Ph.D in your studies yet?

And what was your major emphasis in your studies?

No... I'm on a missionary extension near the end of my ThM. I am a NT studies major (if that as what you call it).

I am looking at PhD options when I finish. There is much to weigh.