2,460th U.S. Soldier Killed in Iraq

" Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty...


To those peoples in the huts and villages across the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required... because it is right. "

John Kennedy


Democrats and liberals no longer subscribe to these precepts.

 

The question is pretty simple. Either invading Iraq was essential to our security or it was not.

If not, the lives lost there have been wasted.

Perhaps not from Karl Rove's POV, of course...

 

No need. She cited percentages as proof that CA was safer than Iraq... The same applies to the conflicts she cites when compared to Iraq.

Almost 300K in about 3.5 years.

Roughly 60 million.

They were right but pragmatism won out... to save Allied lives.

I've seen that estimate.

Depends on who is sitting in the Big Chair.

Many liberals believe as Jimmy Carter did. He believed that the only thing you had to do was get the parties to the table to work out a compromise. In some respects that is true... but the parties have to be willing and the costs of compromise cannot be excessive. I am sure the Islamofascists would give us peace if we agreed with their initiatives to eliminate the nation of Israel and adopted their model of the Islamic state.

 

Intentional or unintentional, it was. We are fighting the enemy on his doorstep. We have taken the initiative and forced him to put his forces between us and a known objective.

This strategy has worked every time it has been employed. A succession of union generals chased Lee around Virginia losing battle after battle as Lee chose the field, time, and order of battle. Finally, Lincoln installed an old drunk ruffian who had the common sense to make a deliberate march on Richmond. Lee was forced to place his army in the defensive between Grant and Richmond... the war ended a within a few months.

The war against Islamofascism will probably be long... but it can only be won by taking the initiative and making them fight on our terms. Going defensive or chasing phantoms in the dark like many here seem to advocate has historically proven to fail.

 

If we used this logic, we need to ask why we are at war with terrorists in the first place. After all only about 3,000 people died on 9/11. This is just a fraction of the people who die each year in automobile accidents. In fact, if you consider the number of people who have died on the roads since the war in Iraq has begun, the people who died in the Twin Towers and the Pentagon are almost insignificant. </font>[/QUOTE]Your same logic applies and even more so to WW2. Only a few thousand people died at Pearl Harbor... no big deal. Maybe we should have played nice and let it go. After all, almost 300,000 American servicemen died in WW2 to defeat a maniacal ideology premised on a particular racial/ethnic/religious RIGHT to dominate the rest of the world... a philosophy which found its clearest expression in hatred for the Jews.

The Islamofascists and their terrorists spawn parallel the Nazis in ideology, aim, and practice. They are just as evil and threatening if not more so. </font>[/QUOTE]So now we're the ones trying to dominate the world what makes it okay for us and not for anyone else Scott? Look around you we've got police dressed up in black masks with german machine guns, cameras going up on every corner, the government training people to spy on each other, the government spying on us, FEMA recruiting pastors to prepare the people for martial law, almost all the laws in place to make America a dictatorship when that takes place. Luckily the courts weren't willing to let the Bush justice dept do away with habeas corpus (so far), the fourth and fifth amendment mean nothing, we have foreign powers that have sworn no loyalty to this country dictating policy to us not that our politicians care they themselves betray the constitution on a regular basis, illegals pouring over the border everyday and more to follow after the amnesty is made law, one doesn't know where bussiness ends and government begins, in other words fascism the same evil you pin on Muslims but refuse to see in your government.

We're quickly becoming all the things you say we fought against in WW2 whether you admit it or not, so how is it that it's acceptable today if was such a bad thing in the 1940's?

 

No Ponch,

We liberate and leave them to their own devices after giving them a fair chance to make their way in a dangerous world...

The Islamofascist take over, stay and oppress...

Apples and Poison no comparisons...

SMM

 

If we used this logic, we need to ask why we are at war with terrorists in the first place. After all only about 3,000 people died on 9/11. This is just a fraction of the people who die each year in automobile accidents. In fact, if you consider the number of people who have died on the roads since the war in Iraq has begun, the people who died in the Twin Towers and the Pentagon are almost insignificant. </font>[/QUOTE]Your same logic applies and even more so to WW2. Only a few thousand people died at Pearl Harbor... no big deal. Maybe we should have played nice and let it go. After all, almost 300,000 American servicemen died in WW2 to defeat a maniacal ideology premised on a particular racial/ethnic/religious RIGHT to dominate the rest of the world... a philosophy which found its clearest expression in hatred for the Jews.

The Islamofascists and their terrorists spawn parallel the Nazis in ideology, aim, and practice. They are just as evil and threatening if not more so. </font>[/QUOTE]So now we're the ones trying to dominate the world</font>[/QUOTE]We aren't trying to dominate the world. No amount of conspiracy spin can prove that we are. We wouldn't have the forces to do the job even if we wanted to. We're not even trying to dominate Iraq. One of the principle aims of our "occupation" has been to establish a stable, self-governing, autonomous national leadership.

Ideals. Ours say that people have a basic right to freedom of conscience and both personal and national self-determination. Those who oppose us want to destroy all vestiges of freedom of conscience as well as most things we would recognize as principles of liberty.

Doesn't change the ideals. We may run the complete cycle before it gets caught. I suspect things will get worse... but this possibility lacks the weight of what Islamofascists have demonstrated and said that they want to do.

Panic, panic, panic. Good grief... you need to get out more.

Nope. I see and have long seen the problems and trends within our gov't. Many of the same concerns were manifest during the Cold War. There were chicken littles who panicked then too. While what the Cold War left us with certainly isn't the Constitutionally consistent republic I want... We didn't end up with a dictatorship either.

Becoming?... probably not but maybe. Quickly?... No.

If you think that what we have today parallels Hitler's Germany, you are deluding yourself.

 

OK. I just looked around... well not "just". I have lived in and visited most areas of this country. I have not seen these black masked policemen.

I have not seen cameras on every corner.

I have neither been trained nor have heard of anyone being trained to spy on "each other"... maybe you are referring to training people to recognize terrorists? Yeah. That'd be a terrible thing if a private citizen noticed something that saved thousands of innocent lives, huh?

... and I'll need more proof than your say so that the gov't is spying on us to suppress non-criminal/terror activity.

 

The original article compared the homicide of all people in California out of the population of all the people in California to a limited set of people in Iraq out of all the people in Iraq, just the US soldiers and not any Iraqis who were killed - which is simply bad math and faulty logic. The "sophistication" of the enemy did not figure into the math or the logic of my objection. That is a new element which you inexplicably introduced.

SSM asked what other conflicts the US has been involved in that had fewer casualties in three years. He didn't mention modern warfare, but Operation Enduring Freedom has considerably fewer casualties than Operation Iraqi Freedom, aka the Iraqi War, while the Civil War, aka the War Between the States aka the War of Northern Agression, remains the champion bloodiest war for the US to date, even without sophicated modern weapons and warfare.

 

Bingo!

 

Okay then why are we still in Japan and Germany if that's the case?

Don't need conspiracy spin Scott I got the PNAC documents.

That's where the "new international order" comes in haven't you heard the Muslim nations all need a private central banking system like the unconstitutional one we have submitted too. And they need to take their orders from the UN and all it's NGO's like we do too!

Nope we're trying to break it up so the "the three state solution" can be implimented, don't you ever read the CFR documents?

Talk about spin!

These are all grand sounding ideals but the elite in charge don't think along those terms, you and I may but they think more like Thomas Malthus.

Living under constant surveillance by a corrupt group of people calling themselves "our government" isn't my idea of freedom Scott.

What do these "Islamofasicists" claim they want to do besides getting the anglophile elite out of their business?

Guess you missed another big story eh? I know the liberal media doesn't follow up on landmark court cases much, (unless it's gay marriage or abortion) but you can watch Michael Jackson and Martha Stewart trials 24/7 to be entertained and distracted.

Dictatships don't just drop out of the sky Scott, first they have to have an "outside threat" to scare the people into accepting a new paradigm "security in exchange for liberties" all would be dictators down through history have used this same age old ploy to get the ball rolling then they need the proper legislation in place and agencies to carry out the will of the elite. We got the Patriot Acts, Homeland Security and FEMA. They also need a propaganda arm to properly condition the people into going along with it all, the one we have today is called the MSM and it's owned and operated by the same elite that dictate their corporate wants and needs to our government in spite of what the people want. Kind of like the "immgration reform" thingy.

Has nothing to do with the North American Union of course, if you read the documents and see it being implimented you are a conspiracy theorist. Oh if people would only turn off the tube and read the documents!

What? Sorry I must have left my rose colored glasses out in the truck again. All those black masked police officers make me feel so much safer knowing they are always on guard against "extremists" like the Branch Davidians and Randy Weaver's wife.

Now they've expanded the definition of "terrorist" to just about everyone except the "islamofascists" but again that's only printed in their own documents, but why should we believe them eh?

The propaganda machine the elite have today is light years ahead of what Hitler and Goebells could even dream of. So I can understand where you are coming from, still you should read the documents more and rely less on the machine to form your opinions, imho.

 

HEART WRENCHING! (YES SHOUTING!) REAL STORY IS THE WOUNDED WITH LOSS OF EYES,EARS,ARMS,LEGS, AND MENTAL HEALTH

SHAME ON THOSE WHO SPIN

I CHOOSE TO AGREE WITH GOD ..THESE ARE REAL HEARTS AND MINDS AND NOT JUST NUMBERS TO COMPARE
WITH OTHER NUMBERS TO JUSTIFY A REALLY BADLY CONDUCTED AND INCOMPETENT OCCUPATION FROM AN INCOMPETENT AND RUTHLESS bush administration..soldiers have done their job bush has deceived and taken advantage of purity and those who trust.

 

I can't speak for Scott...

But, I volunteered for duty during Vietnam and served six full years.

I wanted to join the Seals. But, I was failed out due to Eyesight.

Though I didn't see combat during Viet Nam the potential was there...

When 9-11 happened I contacted the Navy to see if I could rejoin. But, was told I was too old.

So, SN, how many years of active duty have you served? Just curious?

My uncle served several tours during the Korean Conflict in country Air Force. He won't talk about it...

He served three tours in Country in Viet Nam as a front line Army Helo Mechanic... He won't talk about that either...

So, I am not at all sure just how unqualified I really am...

SMM

[ May 26, 2006, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

Sorry but no cigar. First, you are not your uncle, and second, a six year advanced electronics tour in the Navy doesnt make it. For your information, not that it matters since I do not justify the dead in Iraq when I am not the one dying, but I enlisted in 1971 and am still serving, various tours you wouldnt imagine.

 

It's a wonder you aren't under investigation for mutiny and disaffection!

2006 - 1971 = 35 years been in a mighty long time and it makes you at least 53...

I suspect your statements veracity...

If it weren't for your access to the internet I'd suspect you were serving in Levenworth...

Sorry, but just as you completely dismiss my heritage... I also dismiss you as totally insignificant.

SMM
BTW: You obviously have no idea of what billets AT's were serving in during Vietnam...

 

Okay then why are we still in Japan and Germany if that's the case?</font>[/QUOTE] Have they asked us to leave? Last time I heard they were complaining because our force redeployments would take US troops (and money) out of their countries.

By no means have we conquered them... witness Germany's refusal to support us in Iraq.

Living under constant surveillance by a corrupt group of people calling themselves "our government" isn't my idea of freedom Scott. </font>[/QUOTE]Please prove that you are living under constant surveillance by a corrupt group of people calling themselves "our government".

Make Islam the religion of the world. By practice, they use persuasion until they achieve political/military might then they use force. Further, they deny Israel's right to exist. They hold literally millions of square miles and number in the 100's of millions... yet they cannot tolerate a tiny nation made up of only a few million people.

Dictatships don't just drop out of the sky Scott,</font>[/QUOTE] No. They start as idealist movements usually built around a person or small group.

That does not negate the reality of legitimate threats and the need to acknowledge that some liberties may need to be more limited to ensure preservation of the greater liberties. We don't have the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre... and people should not have an unlimited right to use public communications medium to plot and carryout acts of terrorism.

There are threats but they aren't pounding down the door like you seem to think and there are alot more of us wary of those threats than what you seem to think. We're just more reasonable about it.

No I don't like surveillance/spying etc on Americans. I see the direct threat to fundamentalist Christians like me should it be broadly established as a plenary right of gov't. OTOH, I don't relish the idea of having terrorists wreak havoc either.

What? Sorry I must have left my rose colored glasses out in the truck again. All those black masked police officers make me feel so much safer knowing they are always on guard against "extremists" like the Branch Davidians and Randy Weaver's wife.</font>[/QUOTE] You made out like they were posted on every corner. I objected and do object to both of these situations. They are cause for concern. Even though I vehemently disagree with what the Davidians were doing, it would have been an easy matter to arrest Koresh in Waco. Makes no sense.

The Ruby Ridge deal never should've happened either. But these aren't widespread things. Causes for concern? Absolutely. Panic/paranoia? no.

Yes... that dreaded "they".

The propaganda machine the elite have today is light years ahead of what Hitler and Goebells could even dream of.</font>[/QUOTE] Yep. They've convinced me to turn my head while they commit genocide.

Thing is... I have no reason to believe the conspiracy theorists are any more honest than the globalists working deals in the back room.

 

Been through it before. Answered it before.

&lt;edited - LE&gt;

Therefore any criticism you level at me is completely invalid since you have not experienced my life.

&lt;edited - LE&gt; My dad fought in Korea. My uncle was part of a platoon in WW2 that had only 2 or 3 survivors live through an ambush. Another uncle fought in Korea and walked past a mass grave of American soldiers who had been captured and executed by the Chinese. A cousin fought in the bush of Vietnam. One of my best friends in the Reserves was a "shake and bake" NCO in Vietnam.

Hearing their stories and knowing the costs... My branch selection was 11B.

&lt;edited - LE&gt;

[ May 26, 2006, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

So IOW's NNE but YOU has a right to speak out on anything. You're ridiculously pompous.

I volunteered just like you did. I obeyed and would have obeyed any legal order given. They didn't ask me to die. They didn't ask me to shoot anyone.

While I honor the service of anyone who was called upon to make greater sacrifice than I was... your contention that the fact that I was asked to do so some how makes me less honorable or entitled to speak is bunk.

 

Not everyone complained about living in the British empire either, until they started shooting people in the town square. Not everyone complained about living in the Roman empire, well the folks that were fed to the lions probably did but they were considered a "terroristic threat" and subhuman by the "citizens".

Don't you ever read the newspaper? The "proof" is in them as well as the street corner everyday. As long as people are still stuck in the false left vs right paradigm it's an easy thing to convince them that what's going on either isn't going on or it's a liberal or conservative political ploy.

You want get a "conservative" to go along with giving up his rights, that's easy have Ted Kennedy or Chuck Schumer stand up and say he thinks it's a bad idea, then all the conservatives will line up to give them away. It's called controlled opposition Scott been used all through history.

Now step back and consider the big picture, a one world religion. Can't have that until the Muslims and Christians kill enough of each other to get sick of it and submit to that goal.

Again it's in the documents. In this case the United Nations documents. We're witnessing the beast system being formed right before our eyes, how can you or anyone that calls themselves a Christian keep denying the obvious? By being pulled into the false left vs right mentality we're always so busy resisting the controlled opposition and promoting "our side" that we fail to see that neither side care one little whit about the people and both sides are working towards the same goal.

Again the goals are in the documents.

Such as the neocons?

What is reality? The reality is that there are some ligit threats that our system could deal with without destroying the Consitution and subverting those rights. The biggest threats all through history has always been the elite using terror to scare their populations into submission. Look Scott, these guys want a one world government and they'll do anything to get it. If that means killing 3 thousand or 3 million and blaming "the enemy" for it, it means nothing to them. If you don't think people in our own government is up to it then you need to read the Northwoods document.

I'm sure the Germans thought they were quite reasonable too while they were allowing Hitler to put the legislation and brownshirts into place that evetually destroyed their republic. The legislation and brownshirts are being put into place now Scott, they may not be knocking doors down in any big way now but rest assured they they are being trained for it and to believe it's for "the good of the people and the country".

Again it's in the documents.

The real terrorists work for the elite. If you go along with giving up your rights they have no need to terrorize, if you refuse then they'll start blowing things up and blaming it on Muslim patsies, useful idiots and doped up mind controlled assets.

It's in the documents.

But you'll live with it because the elite keep telling you over and over and over and over and over that Osama will get you if don't submit.

Conditioning. Waco was meant to condition the people to lay down and cower when the government breaks the law and commits murder. Look at us we're all powerful, submit.

And all the people say Amen, yessir boss! It's sick.

They don't have to be widespread to have the desired effects on the population. Things like this condition us to believe the government is all powerful and we the people are insignifigant by comparison. Lay down submit, you can't win.

Yes...it's in the documents.

They've convinced you to go along for the ride while they start WW4, a religious war to bring on the one world religion.

Thesis + Anti Thesis = Synthesis

In this case the synthesis will be a one world system ruled by the beast. Can a Christian be both for and against the same thing at the same time? Can one both believe and deny the same thing at the same time?

Apparently so but should we? Is that how our faith is supposed to work?

My honest opinion...many of them aren't. Many of them are just there to sow discord and throw garbage into the groceries. Don't believe any of them. Instead, look at the history of tyranny and terror and read the documents. Keep up with current events and keep asking yourself "does this bring me more liberty or less liberty, does this make me more secure or less secure"?

 

Not everyone complained about living in the British empire either, until they started shooting people in the town square.</font>[/QUOTE] Without consequences of course. In Germany, Japan, and now Iraq, US Soldiers have been tried for crimes. A recent report will probably lead to a murder trial against some Marines.

You are still talking oranges and apples.

Please cite the instance where we have fed Germans or Japanese to the lions... or even driven our tanks over their crops without paying for them.

Don't you ever read the newspaper? The "proof" is in them as well as the street corner everyday. As long as people are still stuck in the false left vs right paradigm it's an easy thing to convince them that what's going on either isn't going on or it's a liberal or conservative political ploy.</font>[/QUOTE] I see a whole bunch of words but no proof. You made a generalized statement about being constantly under surveillance by corrupt people. Where's your proof?

And that relates to proving constant surveillance how?

I don't deny the obvious. I deny the ludicrous and doubt the unproven. FTR, I don't think Satan once loosed by God needs shadow organizations or human conspiracies to carry out his plans.

Whose documents? In context or spun?

Such as the neocons?</font>[/QUOTE] Hardly.

What is reality?</font>[/QUOTE] Airplanes flying into high rise work places. Bombs on commuter trains. Terrorists in Russian elementary schools. Terrorists blowing up Israeli school buses. Islamofascists declaring that the "Great Satan" must die. Civilians being captured and decapitated for the viewing pleasure of muslim extremists. Mobs of Somalis mutilating the bodies of US Army soldiers.

The hatred that Muslims have for Christians and Jews is reality. It isn't something someone made up. It has existed for centuries.

I agree.

I believe you. I just don't believe that they are as pervasive or as much in control as you do.

I'm sure the Germans thought they were quite reasonable too while they were allowing Hitler to put the legislation and brownshirts into place that evetually destroyed their republic.</font>[/QUOTE] Hitler made a power grab that had many different angles. One was fear another was propaganda another was a strong sense of nationalism.

But you'll live with it because the elite keep telling you over and over and over and over and over that Osama will get you if don't submit.</font>[/QUOTE] And he did get some of us.

Compared to my parents generation, I would say that mine is much less likely to accept this.