(2) At what point...

[agedman]

Did not God love the children brought out the the land of Egypt, yet, often, He brought great punishment to them in the wanderings as He displayed His holiness and lack of tolerance for disobedience. God was training the people in both. Where before they had only tradition passed down, God was giving the people first hand knowledge and that high expectation and standard to live.

The wrath God sent to them did not remove them from being called by His name, anymore than the wrath God sends upon disobedient children today are re-alienating them from Him.

Just because humankind turns from God's light, does not mean that the light is in any manner less illuminating, or that the evil ones have any less tolerance for the illumination.

That God's love is shed abroad to all does not mean that the love is in any manner made extinct by the evil one does, or that the love is turned to hate by humankind rejection.

God's attributes do not depend upon the humankind any more than the I depend upon the character of a dish, or pot, or toilet, or sink to determine who I am.

 

[Aaron]

You mistake taking God's wrath as an expression of hatred.

Wrath is expressed thoroughly in God's love.

See this: The Wrath of God as an Aspect of the Love of God
Here is one quote:

"It is most fitting therefore that a volume on God's love should include an essay on the wrath of God. This is necessary, not because we need to balance God's wrath with his love, as rival attributes, but because God's love itself implies his wrath. Without his wrath God is simply not loving in the sense that the Bible portrays his love."​

. . . His love to His vessels of mercy.

Rom 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,​

Paul's already dealt with that notion.

 

[Rippon]

the Scriptures you foisted in some regard did not support your claims.

The Scriptures I have given have not in any way, shape or form been foisted in any regard. There are numerous passages in Holy Writ that declare that God hates certain people. It's a fact.

I am not typing falsehood and it is not appropriate for you to make such a declaration.

You said, among other things, "The thinking that God hates is not found in Scriptures."
What you have said there is indeed false.

From just a few citations from Psalms alone you will plainly see that God does indeed hate certain ones;

5:5,6 : The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong; you destroy those who tell lies. The bloodthirsty and deceitful you, Lord, detest.
11:5 : The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.
53:5 : But there they are, overwhelmed with dread, where there was nothing to dread. God scattered the bones of those who attacked you; you put them to shame, for God despised them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You mistake taking God's wrath as an expression of hatred.

Wrath is expressed thoroughly in God's love.

See this: The Wrath of God as an Aspect of the Love of God
Here is one quote:

"It is most fitting therefore that a volume on God's love should include an essay on the wrath of God. This is necessary, not because we need to balance God's wrath with his love, as rival attributes, but because God's love itself implies his wrath. Without his wrath God is simply not loving in the sense that the Bible portrays his love."​

So God loves them right up to He casts them into the eternal flames? I want no part of that love whatsoever.

Mitigation, mon frère, mitigation.

 

[agedman]

Just an observation, but it seems quite strange that those who oppose that God's love obliges His wrath, must conclude that God is hate. Yet, there is no Scripture to support that God is hate.

God does not work outside of the parameters of His attributes.

Here is a short list of God's attributes as given in Scriptures:
God is love.
God is just.
God is merciful.
God is light.
God is eternal
God is righteous
God is long suffering
God is gracious
God is Holy

And on the list goes.

EVERY attribute that God desires us to know about Himself is laid out in Scriptures.

For God to hate, must be laid out as clearly in Scriptures. And there is not a single verse that declares that hate is an attribute of God.

If I am wrong, prove to me by Scriptures. Show me a verse that declares that God is the antithesis of love.

If you can, then you can also show that God has th

 

[agedman]

. . . His love to His vessels of mercy.

Rom 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,​

Paul's already dealt with that notion.

Again, the verse is not equating God's wrath with God having the attribute of hate. Rather, it shows all the more the love of God. God is willing to "show His wrath" for the purpose of "making known."

Such wrath is purposeful and meaningful. It is not hate. It is an expression of God's love.

 

[Rippon]

Everything that God does is Holy and Perfect. Therefore, when Scripture declares that the Lord hates --you must accept it as much as those passages that state that He loves.

 

[Aaron]

Here's a short list of actions:

The flood
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorah
The hatred of Esau before his birth.

 

[Aaron]

Again, the verse is not equating God's wrath with God having the attribute of hate. Rather, it shows all the more the love of God. God is willing to "show His wrath" for the purpose of "making known."

Such wrath is purposeful and meaningful. It is not hate. It is an expression of God's love.

Yes, love to His chosen.

 

[agedman]

So God loves them right up to He casts them into the eternal flames? I want no part of that love whatsoever.

Mitigation, mon frère, mitigation.

What makes you consider that God is unloving by providing a place for the evil and all that embrace evil?

Would it have been better had God dismissed them to non-existence, to not just be banished, but to vanish into nothing? Or is it more loving to demonstrate His authority by sustaining such even in everlasting torment and banishment?

Wrath of God is not hate. It is judgment expressed. Wrath of God is the result of violated Holiness. It is giving to the evil what the evil demands - separation from any attribute associated with God.

That is one reason, hate is not one of God's attributes. Hate is that attribute of evil in which is the antithesis of God and God's love.

 

[agedman]

Here's a short list of actions:

The flood
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorah
The hatred of Esau before his birth.

First the flood what God's just judgment. That which he expressed as care over all the creation.
Second, the same with Sodom and Gomorah, in which Christ said the judgment was more tolerable that Sidon.
Third, God proclaimed Esau was not going to be given the birthright, in terms of relationship. He exercised the matter of choice, of preference. As such, that the NATION of Esau (according to Malachi) was not adored as much as Israel nor chosen to be a part of what God was granting Israel - and hence the quote from Romans which is (as has been shown) an expression meaning "love less." The judgment upon Esau was no greater or less than the judgment on Israel for not following the Law.

Did God hate when Ishmael and his mother where thrown out of the camp of Abraham, did God ignore them, despise them? Did He not love with care and concern? Did He not sustain them and make of them a great nation? Did He not do the same with Esau? Did God not use them to bring rebuke and tribulation to His people? Does the one working the forge hate the tools used to mold the metal?

 

[SovereignGrace]

--1,000 years means a literal 1,000 years
--death does not mean death but separation
--love means a literal love
--hatred does not mean hatred just annoyed
--wrath does not mean wrath but indignation...which one can not be indignant w/o being angry(have wrath)
--free will means free will but sinners are slaves to satan while unregenerate

Sheesh! Now you guys know why it's so hard to figure you guys out!

 

[Rippon]

Hate is that attribute of evil in which is the antithesis of God and God's love.

Do not disparage God. I have already patiently explained to you that everyting God does is right and perfect. God is holy. It is impossible for him to sin. Therefore, anything he does including hating is perfectly right and no one has the ground to insist that what he does is somehow wrong or evil.

Since Scripture declares in numerous places that the Lord indeed hates certain people --not just their sins, you are arguing against the Word of God.

Remember, the Lord's ways are above our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. He is wholly other.
Do not, I say again, Do not attribute evil to Him.

 

[agedman]

Do not disparage God. I have already patiently explained to you that everyting God does is right and perfect. God is holy. It is impossible for him to sin. Therefore, anything he does including hating is perfectly right and no one has the ground to insist that what he does is somehow wrong or evil.

My how puffed up your post has become. As if I would argue that God does not do right and perfect, that God isn't holy, that isn't impossible for Him to sin.

All that is just mere fluff in attempting to bolster a false claim that an attribute of God is hate.

God is not a God of opposites. He is a God of love not hate.

Since Scripture declares in numerous places that the Lord indeed hates certain people --not just their sins, you are arguing against the Word of God.

Exaggerating to bolster a view does not lend support to that view. The Scriptures do NOT "declare(s) in numerous places that the Lord indeed hates certain people."

If it did, then by this time in the thread there would have been such abundant verses that it would be sound doctrine to state that one of the attributes of God is hate.

So far:

There have been posts about Esau.
I showed how the Romans reference is linked to the Malachi statement concerning the NATION of Esau.

The only concern then is how much more preferred was the person of Israel than the person of Esau, not that God hated one and loved the other. God chose Israel for the seed line, not Esau. In other words, the Scriptures place the person Esau as one loved less than Israel. One in which, as a child of Abraham, would be the father of a nation. A nation that God would give a place, would sustain, and use.

Remember, the Lord's ways are above our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. He is wholly other.
Do not, I say again, Do not attribute evil to Him.

The first and second sentences are a great statement about the Creator. Not certain about the third, it isn't quite comprehensible as it is written. Perhaps your fingers are slower than the brain - mine are.

However, that final sentence is a charge that is unwarranted, and if one looks back at all my posts would find it totally inconsistent with what I present.

Back to the point:

The antithesis of love is ------------------------------------ hate.

Either God is a God of love or according to some He is a God of hate.

He cannot be both. That some would desire Him to have hate as an attribute is taking God away from the attributes He has given of Himself in Scriptures. There is no name for God that includes hate. There is no attribute of God that includes hate.

There are not two sides to God, not even the shadow of turning (Job). He is not light and darkness. He is not righteous and unrighteous. He is not holy and unholy. He is not just and unjust.

God is either a God of love as IS clearly stated, or a god of hate.

One cannot have it both ways when dealing with the attributes of God.

 

[agedman]

--1,000 years means a literal 1,000 years
--death does not mean death but separation
--love means a literal love
--hatred does not mean hatred just annoyed
--wrath does not mean wrath but indignation...which one can not be indignant w/o being angry(have wrath)
--free will means free will but sinners are slaves to satan while unregenerate

Sheesh! Now you guys know why it's so hard to figure you guys out!

If you are mentioning the millennial reign of Christ, then yes, 1000 years means a literal 1000 years.

If you are discussing death in terms of the wages of one (believer - as the Corinthian assembly experienced, or unbeliever as one who practices sinful living) who dies physically, then yes there is judgment that follows. Either one is separated from God for all eternity in that place prepared, or enjoying the glories in that place prepared.

Is there ever a time that love does not mean a literal love? Surely you remember that the Greeks had three for the single English love, the eros, philia, and agape.

Hatred is not of God. 1 John 4:20.

There is a vast difference between wrath and hate. Every child that is disciplined understands that a parent may have wrath, but that doesn't mean the child is hated.

There is NO free will for the unregenerate. Only the believer is capable of freedom of choice.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Someone has a 'Van complex' it appears.

 

[agedman]

Someone has a 'Van complex' it appears.

I apologize if my response was anything other than making clarification.

I read your post as if it was lumping all those items as a bundled package upon my thinking, and desired to make certain that clarifications were established.

 

[Rippon]

My how puffed up your post has become.

Puffed up? I was just speaking factually --staying true to the Bible.

As if I would argue that God does not do right and perfect, that God isn't holy, that isn't impossible for Him to sin.

Listen to what you have said:"The thinking that God hates is not found in Scripture." That is foundationally false.

Listen to what you have said:"Be careful to not attribute to God what is an attribute of that which is evil."

Now that, my friend, is an evil charge against God coming from your keystrokes. God hates. It is as indisputable as God loves. You are insisting that if God hates then he does evil in your view. I said everything He does is good, right, holy and perfect.

The Scriptures do NOT "declare(s) in numerous places that the Lord indeed hates certain people."

Then your translation must be the Thomas Jefferson Bible. But you have no right to expunge that which you deem unacceptable.

Listen to what you have said:"Hate always brings excess and over indulgent excuse begging for the excess of retribution."

Now, that's as ungrammatical as can be, but the import is clear. You are man-centered. There is no fault in God. He is perfect and holy as I have emphsized numerous times. Yet you just don't get it. Or rather, you stubbornly refuse to admit it.
When mortals hate, it is rarely righteous hatred. But God is God and not a mortal. He does not and cannot sin. He is perfect and holy in all He does.

The Lord is said to be a jealous God. When a human being is jealous it is sinful. But when God is said to be jealous it is a holy jealousy. The same principle applies to hate. When God hates some people as the Scriptures often declare --it is a holy hatred.

the Scriptures place the person Esau as one loved less than Israel.

When Scripture declares that God hates Esau you have no right to maintain that it means loved less. That's stinkin' thinking on your part. It's just as unsound as to say that God hated Jacob less than Esau.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I apologize if my response was anything other than making clarification.

I read your post as if it was lumping all those items as a bundled package upon my thinking, and desired to make certain that clarifications were established.

What I am saying is there are literalists on here. They'll say...
--1,000 years means a literal 1,000 years as in the millienial kingdom
--love means love because God IS love
--free will means free will...

Then when confronted with...
--hate does not mean hate, just loved less
--wrath does not mean wrath, just indignation...when in reality you can't have indignation without having anger/wrath
--death in spiritual death is not death but is merely being separated from God. But nekros means dead as in corpse
--then you explain free will and show them the unregenerate are bound, slaves to sin, they say free will is not really free will, but rather, libertarian free will

That's why it's impossible to debate these people. They continually move the goal posts.

 

[agedman]

Puffed up? I was just speaking factually --staying true to the Bible.

Listen to what you have said:"The thinking that God hates is not found in Scripture." That is foundationally false.

Listen to what you have said:"Be careful to not attribute to God what is an attribute of that which is evil."

Now that, my friend, is an evil charge against God coming from your keystrokes. God hates. It is as indisputable as God loves. You are insisting that if God hates then he does evil in your view. I said everything He does is good, right, holy and perfect.

What you seem to be doing is attempting to place God on your side, but I don't see your evidence.

What you have given, has been efficiently and effectively shown as not suggesting God is hate.

Grandiose claims made above do not provide Scripture support of the "numerous" and "abundant" statements of Scriptures you claim to have made. Certainly, on this thread, you have made numerous and abundant statements, but not Scripture, and what you displayed of Scripture has not proven your numerous and abundant statements.

Then your translation must be the Thomas Jefferson Bible. But you have no right to expunge that which you deem unacceptable.

Listen to what you have said:"Hate always brings excess and over indulgent excuse begging for the excess of retribution."

Now, that's as ungrammatical as can be, but the import is clear. You are man-centered. There is no fault in God. He is perfect and holy as I have emphsized numerous times. Yet you just don't get it. Or rather, you stubbornly refuse to admit it.
When mortals hate, it is rarely righteous hatred. But God is God and not a mortal. He does not and cannot sin. He is perfect and holy in all He does.

The Lord is siad to be a jealous God. When a human being is jealous it is sinful. But when God is said to be jealous it is a holy jealousy. The same principle applies to hate. When God hates some people as the Scriptures often declare --it is a holy hatred.

To place an attribute that is Scripturally a part of God (jealousy) , and then suggest it validates another attribute is a bait and switch tactic of salesmanship. The first has no bearing on the last, and often the last is not worthy of the first.

The Scriptures declare that the Lord is a jealous God, Ex. 34, Duet. 6.

PLEASE find where the Scriptures declare that the God of all Heaven and Earth is a God of Hate.

When Scripture declares that God hates Esau you have no right to maintain that it means loved less. That's stinkin' thinking on your part. It's just as unsound as to say that God hated Jacob less than Esau.

Pardon me, I thought you were an authority on Biblical languages.

I was under the assumption that you knew that the literal translation of the English word "hate" includes "love(s,d) less."

That you don't know, is an error on my part for not sharing most accurately.

I have long ago lost what small ability that I had, and I have often stated that when I work with the languages of the Scriptures that those who know the languages are to kindly correct any errors in the work I post, lest I be inaccurate in rendering the Scriptures and bring that certain condemnation upon myself.