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2 Corinthians 5:14-15 and the Atonement

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, May 6, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Is that right? Then, what do you make of Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:40, "and I think also that I have the Spirit of God"? "think", the Greek is "dokeo", "to seem, appear" Do you think that Paul was not sure whether he had the Holy Spirit in him?

    Dabney is very clear in what he says about using certain verses to support Calvinistic doctrines, which, he honestly admits does not do so. Some on this board would to well to follow Dabney's lead.
     
  2. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    I never said that he did not. My purpose is to show that an honest mind, Dabney apart, would also conclude that Paul's language in 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 clearly shows that the death of Christ has equal value for those who are not "elect"
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I guess that depends on what you mean by value.
     
  4. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Can we have your interpretation of this passage then?
     
  5. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    No, he doesn't. He says they don't support the "high" strain of Calvinism, the teachigs the "strict Calvinist"--using these terms to mean what we today would call hypercalvinists.
     
  6. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    No, he doesn't. He says they don't support the "high" strain of Calvinism, the teachigs the "strict Calvinist"--using these terms to mean what we today would call hypercalvinists. </font>[/QUOTE]So, would you nonetheless agree with what he says on this passage? If not, can we have your meaning?
     
  7. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    You made a common error that comes from people trying to make "word for word" translations. Greek is a very sensitive language and useage affects meaning.

    Go to Strongs, and look for "seem" in the bible. You won't find 1 Corin 7:40 listed.
    Look up "think" and you find it.

    This is because, the way it is phrased in the manuscripts, it is not used as "it seems so," it is used as the stronger phrasing of "I think," or "I believe it be so,"

    However, even if that were not the case, the word seem as Dabney uses it is NOT the Greek word. He is using English phrasing and English meaning.

    Pastor Larry, I do agree with your theological arguement, but I felt you'd hit all the points theologically, so I simply pointed out that even according to grammar - you're still right.
     
  8. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Do I agree with his interpretation of this passage? I'm going to have to say that I'm not sure, because I'm not sure I understand exactly what Dabney is saying about this particular passage. I have a hard time following his reasoning about these particular verses.

    If he's saying that this passage is teaching that everyone in the world has died with Christ, then I think he's wrong about the meaning of this passage. I think the groups that dies with Christ is the very same group as the group that lives through Christ's resurrection: "If we died with him, we will also live with him." (From 2 Timothy somewhere.)

    I do know, however, that I agree with Dabney "that there are passages which imply that Christ died for all sinners in some sense," and that "the expiation made by Christ is so related to all, irrespective of election, that God can sincerely invite all to enjoy its benefits, that every soul in the world who desires salvation is warranted to appropriate it, and that even a Judas, had he come in earnest, would not have been cast out." (And honestly, I don't know of any Calvinist who would disagree with him on that.)

    I'm just not sure this particular passage is one of the ones that implies that.

    [ May 06, 2005, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  9. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    But no Calvinist can deny that this passage does speak of Christ dying for all the world. In which case His Atonement would have equal value (no difference) for all without exception. Whether Dabney uses "seems" or not, the fcat is that he admits that there are passages that Calvinists use (whether hyper or not), that in all honesty (he uses the word "candid"), cannot be used to support Limited Atonement. The issue here is not whether Dabney believes in a Limited Atonement, but, his undersyandingon certain "key" Calvinistic texts, which ought not be used for this purpose. This is exactly the same with Calvin himself. There is clear language that he uses, for example on Mark 14:24, where he speaks of Chirst dying for the human race.

    There can be no doubt, that the balance of evidence form Scripture, clearly supports an Unlimited Atonement, but not Universalism.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Having thoroughly chewed through Dabney's view of the Bible - can we get back to "the Bible"?
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    On the off chance that 2 Cor 5 is still of some interest --

    Understand the need to derail off of the text - but lets get back to it "anyway".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    You're all missing the point because two verses are taken out of context and scrutinized insufferably for their content, when in context the message and intent is clear.
    There is no such thing as limited atonement!
    There is no such thing as "effectual atonement"!

    There is atonement for sin so that through our FAITH in the one who atoned for us, we become uprightness before God. AND, it is whosoever believeth, not some preselected yahoo's who indeed receive the everlasting life!
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "One Died FOR ALL" but it yet remains for the ALL to be "reconciled to God" even though God was IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD to Himself.

    The atoning sacrifice is "ONE died for ALL" - but the "Atonement" includes both the "atoning sacrifice" and the "reconciliation of the individual" - thus when completed "There is nothing more to be done".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Paul argues in Romans 6 that we who are baptized were "Baptized into Christ's death" so that the death he died to sin should be our death.

    It is not true that all humans have died to sin. For that to become a reality in the life of the believer - one must choose salvation.

    In the same way God is "reconciling the world to Himself" and yet WE have the ministry of reconciliation begging the lost to "BE reconciled" to God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Agree BobRyan,
    However, ALL sin has been atoned and no sin, save the sin of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is held against man to his death. Those who face the second death, the death of spirit, do so because they LACK FAITH in God, not because of sin!

    Those who accept God's offer of reconciliation, are those who believe. Believers are not judged, but pass from death into life everlasting. Unbelievers are not only Judged, but because their names are not found in the book of life, they are cast into the lake of fire, the second death.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a text saying that "atonement for sin was completed at the cross"?

    What about the view that the cross is "The Atoning sacrifice" in the Atonement model that God gives the world in Lev 16 for the concept of "atonement" and that the High priestly work of Christ our Savior shown in Heb 8-10 is exactly as predicted in God's atonement definition that He gives in Lev 16.

    In that case the Atoning sacrifice is completed at the cross - and Atonement process CONTINUES in the form of Christ's High Priestly ministry in Heb 8-10 just as God predicted in Lev 16.

    In that Lev 16 definition of atonement ALL the Work of Christ is "significant" and essential to the concept.

    In that model -- once Atonement is COMPLETE -- nothing more is left to be done. The story is over.
     
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    John 19:30. After Jesus had taken the wine he said, "It is fulfilled"; and bowing his head he gave up his spirit. (most translations say, "it is finished". fulfilled and finished do mean the same thing.)

    I would remind you that John was at the foot of the cross when Jesus died. Matthew, Mark and perhaps even Luke were away from the scene, probably hiding in fear of their own lives. John stayed there with Mary, the mother of Jesus.

    What is fulfilled? The work the Father assigned to Jesus.

    Was it only the prophesy that the Son of God would die? There were many prophesies regarding Jesus, including that He would take away the sin of the world. Sin has it's power in the penalty assigned to it by God. Jesus satisfied that penalty ONCE, for ALL.

    What was the purpose of his death? Knowing that He could have done virtually everything needed to reconcile man with God, EXCEPT violating God the Father's law of sin and death. And because all have sinned, All must die. Jesus took it upon himself to die in our stead and in so doing to satisfy the Fathers law of sin and death.

    What high priestly duties is the Christ doing today? Is he still sacrificing animals and placing there blood in the Holy of Holies? Is he "advocating for us"? or is he, as scripture declares sitting at the Father's right hand awaiting the Father's word to return to the earth among men?
     
  18. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Do you not believe that the Atonement is a finished act? If not, are you suggesting that it is still going on? I don't know what you understand by the Atonement, but it is very clear from Scripture that the Act of the Atonement of Jesus Christ was completed on the cross, when He said "It is finished" (Greek, perfect tense, "It remains finished"). Though its application is on-going to everyone sinner who repents.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I am simply asking for actual Bible quotes that use the concept/term "Atonement".

    In the case of "The Atoning Sacrifice" completed at the cross - I have a quote from 1John 2:2 from the NIV.

    What do you have?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty good one for Christ's sacrifice "sin offering" completed at the cross.

    What about the Atonement?

    In 1John 2:2 that John 19 event is called the "Atoning Sacrifice".

    I for one - believe it was completed at the cross.

    What about the Lev 16 concept of "atonement" that INCLUDES the High Priestly ministry of Christ (that we see in Heb 8-10 taking place AFTER the cross)??

    Are you asking for a review of Hebrews 7-10?

    Maybe we should start that as its own thread.

    Certainly Hebrews 9 argues the case that the blood He is presenting as our High Priest is His OWN.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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