#2 Dispy v. CT

Ed, just spend some time reading other views besides your own. Then perhaps we can have a conversation. You are so off base its not worth the effort.

 

I agree. That comment was directed at Scofield, not any one on this board.</font>[/QUOTE]My comment was directed at people on this board. I see too many times where expectations are made the test of truth rather than the words of Scripture. That should not be the standard.

 

Grasshopper,

I have spent a good deal of time reading the preterist position. I have read Days of Vengeance, Before Jerusalem Fell, Revelation: Four Views, et al. I am well acquainted with the preterist interp of Revelation, Daniel, the OD, etc. I certainly do not maintain that preterists are ignorant fools. I do maintain that they allegorize passages to make it fit their theology, not to balance out with the rest of Scripture.

If any one presents a better “tribes of the land” argument than David Chilton, I have not seen it yet. Nonetheless, ALL of Scripture views the “Last Days” as having GLOBAL not LOCAL significance. Before this is over, I am going to have to dig out my well read and well marked works by Gentry, Chilton, DeMar, Sproul, et al. Much is available for download at www.freebooks.com (modified Post-mil and Christian Reconstructionist site). Their arguments only make limited sense if you ignore the rest of the Bible on the issues.

 

Pastor Larry,

I will reply back to you later tonight.

Dispensationalism teaching of emphasis that there is distinction between Israel and Church. It teaches that Israel is not the part of Christ's body as Church.

Later tonight, I will discuss on 'Israel' & 'Church', what the Bible teaching with verses.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPT,

Dispy does not teach that Jew and Gentile are not one in the Church. It does teach that Jews and Gentiles are joined as one in the Church.

Disp teaches that there will be a future literal theocratic kingdom on earth at the close of the "times of the Gentiles" and that at that time, God will restore national Israel to a place of blessing and bring her to the point of world prominence and dominion. That is the teaching of disp.

Just did not want you to spend your time dealing with a "misstatement" of dispensationalism. Far to many have dealt with a caricature of disp and not the real thing.

 

I understand clear that most baptists (include IFB's), teaching both Jews & Gentiles(individuals) of the N.T. are unity together in one body of Christ, not divided. Most dispensationalists believe the same thing.

Yet, many disps saying "Israel" is not part of the Body of Christ.

Later tonight, I will discuss more deep on 'Israel' & 'Church' with verses.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Partially correct and partially incorrect. You are correct in saying that DT teaches a distinction between Israel and the church. This distinction is constantly borne out in Scripture, and is never erased (apart from the presupposition that they are the same. In other words, you have to start with the premise in order to support the premise. If you don't presuppose that they are the same, no Scripture will teach that).

However, you are incorrect in saying that DT teaches that Israel is not a part of the body. I have already addressed this many times. In the body, there is no Jew or Greek (Gal 3). The body is Christ is marked by unity. DT's point of emphasis in this regard is that God did not change his promises to Israel as a nation. The fact that Israelites (Jews) are now a part of the church does not mean that God has changed. He made promises to Israel as a nation (the descendants of Abraham, and he will fulfill those promises). Every Jew that comes to Christ now is a part of hte body of Christ.

 

DeafPT,

Yep, that is clear. And it is a correct statement of the Disp position. I would state that "ISRAEL" is not a part of the body of Christ.

That is the whole point of Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Israel as a nation is blind. Some Jews have believed, hence the partial blindness. The sins of Israel have not been taken away, yet. All Israel has not been saved. All the church has been saved, or they are not part of the church!

That is the dispensationalist distinction. Look forward to seeing what you have for us later! Have a great day in the Lord, brother.


PastorLarry,

Jews are part of the Body of Christ. Israel is not. Not yet. We are in agreement, yes?

 

Yes, that is correct. The promises of God in teh OT were made to corporate Israel, not individual Jews. Today, individual Jews are a part of the body of Christ. Corporate Israel has not been abandoned however; God is faithful and will keep his promises.

 

Much of the allegory is taken straight from the OT Prophets who allegorized it from the beginning. It is not the preterist who change the nature it is the pre-mill literalist.

Examples include:
Judgement on Egypt
Ez.32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Fall of Babylon(539BC)
Is. 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.


Fall of Israel
Amos 8: 8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? yea, it shall rise up wholly like the River; and it shall be troubled and sink again, like the River of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord Jehovah, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

Judgement on Nineveh
Nahum 1
1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
2 Jehovah is a jealous God and avengeth; Jehovah avengeth and is full of wrath; Jehovah taketh vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Judgement on Edom
Is. 34: 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.
5 For my sword hath drunk its fill in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.


Now compare to Matthew which you take literal:

Matt. 24: 29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Can you prove that? The "last days" according to the writer of Hebrews, Paul, Peter and John were happening in the 1st century. I can prove that from scripture. Do you hold to 2 sets of "last days" or the ED belief that the "last days" are really 1000s of years.

Now rjprince, questions I asked you which have still gone unanswered:

1.What is the "primary" meaning of genos?

2. a.Why does Matthew go back and forth between
genos and genea?
b.Why does Jesus use genos in Matthew 23:23 yet uses genea just a few minutes later?

3. Had Jesus wished to imply that these events would happen in their lifetime, which word would He have used? Genea or Genos?

 

Grasshopper,

Quickly, then I will be back later.

I do not deny figurative language in the OT. I deny that you can allergorize away ALL of the many specific promises to Israel. Will enumerate later.

The last days were happening during the life of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, etc. They are continuing even today. The “last days” include many things that have not happened yet. As noted on another post, the phrase “the last days” includes anything from the First Advent up to and including the New Heavens and the New Earth. Will also document later.

Got the info for you on genos and gennea. Will post later, and develop. Not sure there is that much significance in the shift from gennea to genos, but plan to be back later this evening.

Do a word search on “last day*”. You will get four hits in the OT and 12 in the NT. Peter said that the “last days” had come, and then that they had not yet come!

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts... 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Which was it? Had it come? Or was “shall come... will come... shall pass... shall melt...”

If you understand the width and breadth of the terminology, both are right. It had come, to some degree. It was yet to come to the full degree.

Later.

 

"Last days" is plural. Therefore during the writing of the NT they were in the middle of the "last days". Peter is describing the passing of the Old Covenant using figurative language.

However if the "last days" began at Pentecost and continue on today why do so many pre-mill preachers make sure they tell the congregation "we are in the last days"? Isn't that quite obvious given your belief? It is like the biology teacher telling his students "humans breathe air" duh. Others on this board and Pre-Mill teachers tell us the "last days" didn't start till 1948 at the re-birth of national Israel. You would agree that is foolishness given your views?

John said it is the "last hour". Do you believe the "last hour" is also a reference to 2000 years and counting?

Would you also agree that anyone who believes the "last days" refer to a relatively short period of time are really preterist but just don't know it?

 

Why is that? Because it does not fit your theology?

Support your allegation from the text. I can’t really find Old or New Covenant in here at all. But then I follow a CLGH hermeneutic.

2Pet 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 ¶ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

Grasshopper,

Nor do I see the statehood of Israel as the blooming of the fig tree (see Luke 21:29, a tree is a tree is a tree). 1948 was a good year for the Jews. I do not see it as having specific prophetic significance beyond the fact that God has preserved His chosen people and some of them are returning to the land. When God brings them back, it will be evident that it is Him doing it(Deut 30:1-10; Matt 24:31; Luke 21:24,27,28). Regathering, restoration, and redemption for the Jews are not ideas that can be supported by a preterist interpretation of the OD or the book of Rev.

Re John’s use of the “last hour”, has the world and it lust “passed away” yet? Context, context, context.

I would not agree that those who hold the final stage of the “last days” to be a fairly brief time have conceded that “the last days” in general are a brief time. Neither I nor they would accept the label preterist. Much Bible prophecy remains to be fulfilled (see my texts cited for Aaron at this link - http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2648/10.html ).

I will comment more on "last days" tomorrow (DV - Deo volente, God willing, and the Creek don't rise).

 

Matt 5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So are we still under the Law? Is the Law fulfilled? If Heaven and Earth have not passed then we are still under the Law.

I thought you were familiar with Chilton's writings:

David Chilton (1987)
"Moreover, the phrase heaven and earth in these contexts does not, as Owen pointed out, refer to the physical heaven and the physical world, but to the world-order, the religious organizations of the world, the "House" or Temple God builds in which He is worshipped." (Days of Vengeance., p. 544)

Isaiah 1
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for Jehovah hath spoken: I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Is. 51: 16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and have covered thee in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the LAW, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that IT (the law) may be there for a WITNESS AGAINST thee.
Deuteronomy 31:27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
Deuteronomy 31:28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call HEAVEN AND EARTH to RECORD AGAINST them

Here is what Dr. John Owen said in his sermon on II Peter 3:

'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.

' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state

Here is what Spurgeon said regarding the Jewish idiom heaven and earth:

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).


John Locke (1705)
"That St. Paul should use 'heaven' and 'earth' for Jews and Gentiles will not be thought so very strange if we consider that Daniel himself expresses the nation of the Jews by the name of 'heaven' (Dan. viii. 10). Nor does he want an example of it in our Saviour Himself, who (Luke xxi. 26) by "powers of heaven" plainly signifies the great men of the Jewish nation. Nor is this the only place in the Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians which will bear this interpretation of heaven and earth. He who shall read the first fifteen verses of chap. iii. and carefully weigh the expressions, and observe the drift of the apostle in them, will not find that he does manifest violence to St. Paul's sense if he understand by "The family in heaven and earth" (ver. 15) the united body of Christians, made up of Jews and Gentiles, living still promiscuously among those twp sorts of people who continueds in their unbelief. However, this interpretation I am not positive in , but offer it as matter of inquiry to those who think and impartial search into the true meaning of the Sacred Scriptures the best employment of all the time they have." (Ephesians 2:9-10, in loc.)

Josephus also references the Temple and its outer court as heaven and earth.

But that is not what they say nor preach. They believe the "last days" STARTED in 1948.

So your answer is yes, the" last hour" refers to 2000 years and counting.

Still waiting.

 

Grasshopper,

The fact that I disagree with Chilton’s interpretation of Peter’s use of “heaven and earth” is no indication of a lack of familiarity with his writings. He was a very intelligent theologian and a prolific writer. Nonetheless, I disagree with him often in matters relating to the preterist spectacles through which he viewed the Bible. Neither do I agree with his position on “household baptism” which envisions paedobaptism as the sacrament of the New Covenant! (alluded to on line 11 of the same page you cited!)

Scripture must be compared with Scripture. This I have done. You have merely taken pet “phrases” out of context to attempt to support your allegorical interpretation of clear and specific OT prophecies.

Regarding “the law” in Matt 5:18 – the passage does not teach that Gentiles are under the law! Go back to Acts 15 and read verses 24 and 29. What Jesus says is that all the law will be one day fulfilled, not that Gentiles or the Church will be under the law. The law was not given to Gentiles or the church, it was given to Israel - Rom 9:4. We are not under the law and heaven and earth have not yet passed away.

One final thought regarding “last days”. AND, please take special note of this truth. It is foundational in the understanding of Biblical prophecy. It also works much more consistently that allegorizing anything that does not fit your own personal theological framework, or as the case may be, the framework of other preterist or amil writers.

It should be well recognized that the prophets often linked events together that in all reality were separated by hundreds or even thousands of years. If you want evidence of this, just let me know. The reason is readily understood after a trip to the mountains. Standing on one mountain peak, you can see what is in the valley below you. You can see the mountain peaks in the distance. What you cannot see are the valleys that lie in between the distant peaks. The prophets accurately and faithfully described the last days as God revealed truth to them. What God did not reveal and what they did not see was the valley of the Church. It was a mystery to them. Yes, they did see that Gentiles would be blessed in faithful Abraham, they did not see how that would take place. Nor, did they see the gap between the first coming of Christ and His second coming. Therefore, when they describe the “last days” they can be talking about anything from His first coming, to His second coming, to the New Heavens and New Earth wherein will dwell righteousness.

OK. Now back to the genos/genea issue. Oh, and sorry for the delay. Had left BAG (Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich) at the church, several times.

The primary definition for genos is “descendants of a common ancestor” (BAG, p. 155)

The primary definition for genea is “lit., those descended from a common ancestor, a clan” (BAG, p. 153)

The root is so close as to make the kind of distinctions you have attempted to draw an impossible stretch. It like Weust’s explanation of agapaw and philew in John 21. He ignores the fact that John seems to uses those two words interchangeably in his gospel. Yes there is a subtle distinction in the two, but not nearly so large a one as he has created, or perhaps repeated.

As to the switching back and forth between genea and genos in the OD. Let’s just take a look.

In Matt 23:36, we have genea.
In Matt 24:34, we have genea.
Mark 13, Luke 21, also genea.

Genos, oh wait, it is not used in the OD. Not in Matthew, not in Mark, and not in Luke. Not in Matt 23:23, 24:23; or 25:23. Not at all. Switching back and forth? Where did you get that? Would be interested in the source.

Genos is used 21 times in the NT. It is translated as kind 5, kindred 3, offspring 3, nation 2, stock 2, born 2, diversity 1, country 1, countrymen 1, generation 1; 21. So, it gets translated as generation 1 out of 21 times in the NT.

Kinda seems like your argument here has collapsed.

 

What? Can you prove this? Jesus rose again after 3 hours?

No you didn't. That is your interpretation from your childhood preacher. However now according to you Jesus rose after 3000 years.

I would be happy to if the questions were answered. You should know, you have yet to answer my question of whether the New Heavens and New Earth of Is. 65 & 66 are the same as Revelation. I think we both know why you avoid it.

Besides, I don't think you have the right to lecture anyone on posting and re-posting. You haven't had a fresh thought in 3 years. Your entire eschatological thoughts are contained in your Word Documents which you post over and over and over again. Hope you don't get a virus.