#2 Dispy v. CT

Had you read Chilton and Gentry as much as you led me to believe you would have known what was meant by the term "heaven and earth". It's all over CT's writings.

No, you take figurtive language of the OT and force it into a literal meaning in the NT which was never meant.

No, what Jesus said is that none will pass till all has passed. You don't believe the law has been fulfilled or passed away?

This from someone who ignores every time statement concerning prophecy. Do you allegorize the words "near" or "at hand" or do you take them literal? Why did the angel tell John to NOT seal up his book? According to Dan 2 what Kingdom was established during the Roman Empire?

Old argument. Ryrie or Waalvord?

Baloney. What did the NT writers mean by it? Or were they blinded as well.

So its "heads you win tails I lose". You have worked it nicely where there is no way according to you God would use either of those words to describe the disciples contemporaries.

I ask again. If God wanted to convey the message that the OD was to occur in their lifetime which word would He have used? genea or genos or gennema? Should be an easy one for you,but you seem to not want to answer.

Never said it was did I. Talk about straw men. I said Matthew, not Matthew 24.

No, that is exactly my point. As you just said genos is not found in the OD which you say is race. Nor is gennema which has basically the same meaning. But genea is.

Why the back and forth through Matthew of these words if race was always the menaing?


GeÑnnhma Gennema Translated Words fruit, generation


Mt 3:7 - But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them,O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mt 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mt 26:29 ButI say unto you,I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day whenI drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.


GeÑnov Genos Translated Words born, diversity, kind, kindred, misc., nation, offspring, stock

Mt 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mt 17:21
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.


genea/
1.fathered, birth, nativity
2. that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
a. the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
b. metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
1. esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3.the whole multitude of men living at the same time an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each
4.successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years


Mt 1:17 -So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Mt 11:16 -
But whereunto shallI liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mt 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mt 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mt 12:42
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mt 12:45
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Mt 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Mt 17:17
Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shallI be with you? how long shallI suffer you? bring him hither to me.
Mt 23:36 -
VerilyI say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mt 24:34
VerilyI say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Does "generation" ever mean contemporaries in your view?

 

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Your theory is just shot down. It doesn't say equal it says like. Why is a day LIKE a 1000 years to God, because God is outside the realm of time. We are not.

Ps. 90:1Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

God is not limited by time,this has nothing to do with prophecy. This is a cheap trick used by futurist who don't like what the Bible says concerning when these events were to occur. You are basically saying God is incapable communicating with His creation or chooses to leave them in confusion.

Here is a prophecy, it doesn't hold to your ridiculous 1 day =1000 year theory.

Matt 26:61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Yes, that is what you are guilty of.

So John was saying " It is the appropriate time"?

Hope you both get to feeling better. Nothing worse than being sick.

The verses dealing with The New Heavens and Earth.Is 65:17/Is.66:22

Good, then lets deal with scripture, not about who should be posting what and who is a fool or not.

 

How long is 1000 years in this prophetic passage? Run it through your formula and let me know.

 

ok

 

Grasshopper, (reply to your post of 1/14/05 - 20:44)

I have read all of Days of Vengeance. I have read all of Before Jerusalem fell. I have read most of He Shall Have Dominion. I have also read Mauro, Gerstner, Sproul, Mathison, et al. How arrogant of you to assume that if I had read them well, I would have understood the meaning of “heaven and earth” in a manner that reflects their amil and revived postmil (Chilton and Gentry during their association with North and the Tyler group) theology.

The fact that I do not agree with their interpretation does not mean I do not understand their interpretation. They are wrong!

Re the law passing and being fulfilled (Matt 5:17-18) – The law has not passed. It is still in existence. Preached from Genesis this past Sunday! We are not under the law, do you contend that we are? It will all be fulfilled. It has not passed and it has not all been fulfilled. Not totally sure I understand your point here.

Old argument on the mountain peaks? I have used it for about 28 years or so. Heard from a college professor. It was an excellent illustration of truth, so I have kept it and used it often. Ryrie or Walvoord?, do not know if they use it or not. Have read both extensively and do not recall seeing it in any of their works, but maybe so.

John 3:16 is older still. Does its age lessen its truth?

Heads/Tails! You asked me for the PRIMARY definitions of both genos and genea. I gave you these from Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich with page numbers. Now, you accuse me “working it nicely” to make my point?

As far as which word could have been used to indicate that Jesus was referring to His contemporaries with the words “this generation”? EITHER WORD COULD HAVE BEEN USED IN SUCH MANNER! But the use of one or the other does not PROVE EITHER POINT!!! THAT IS MY POINT!!! Amils and modified revived postmils use the phrase “this generation” to insist that Jesus was referring to His contemporaries. The meaning of the word does not require this and the context does not support this!

Re switching back and forth from genos to genea and my alleged "straw man", YOU SAID (1/13/05, 17:13)

You asked for “PRIMARY” defintions. Now, you accuse me of manipulating BAG to get the coin toss!

You asked why Jesus used genos in Matt 23:23 and genea later. Now you tell me you didn’t.

And, I have just answered that EITHER of the words could have been used to indicate the specific generation that heard the words of Jesus. HOWEVER THE CONTEXT DOES NOT FIT THAT USE, IMHO, and THE LANGUAGE CERTAINLY DOES NOT REQUIRE THAT DEFINITION, THE PRIMARY DEFINITION FITS JUST FINE!!!

The info on gennhma was nice, but not relevant since it is not used in the OD by any of the synoptics. The references where it was used really had no bearing on our discussion.

AND, Yes, again, genos, genea can mean “contemporaries” in the NT. However, and again I repeat, the fact that it can and does refer to contemporaries in some instances in no way proves that it does so in the OD. That is my point. Your and other CT arguments that it MUST refer to the ones who heard the OD is without solid foundation.

This was not my point, but I do think the “minute, hour, day, millennia” discussion got way off base there.

Still need to deal with Rev 20 and Isa 65-66 for you.

Have I left any other of your questions to me unanswered?

 

Read carefully, I'm not saying you agree with it. When I said heaven and earth referred to the Old Covenant, you gave a response as if thats the first you've ever heard of it. Thus my comment about your reading of CT.

You still preach the Law? Yet claim we are not under it?

No,you seem to suggest that .Who is under the law if it still exists?

So Jesus did not fulfill the Law?

I guess you might agree then: when the Law passes, heaven and earth will also pass?

John 3:16 is in the Bible, blurry mountain prophecies are not.

NOR DOES IT DIS-PROVE IT!!!

The context absolutely does. Which age do you think the disciples were asking about? The end of the age they were living in or a yet future age to them?

You and your crowd say under no circumstances can it mean contemporaries. Otherwise you have big problems.

You finally came through. However perhaps you could find out when the word generation is used to identify contemporaries, which greek word is used and how often.

 

Pastor Larry,

I'm back.

You say,

You are right. But, you say,

Only limited the NT Church???

Please tell me of Rev. 21:9-10, who's the Bride -New Jerusalem?

You say,

Let's discuss on 'Israel'.

Firstly, dispensationalists saying there is no word 'church' find anywhere in the Old Testament, till it first appear in Matthew. They saying, Church was not yet exist or formed till Christ came to earth.

Greek word for church- 'ekklesia' means, called out, congregation. Church is not a religion, building, or organization. It means God's people.

Interesting, I read another discussion forum, a person made post on church with verses in the Old Testament used from Latin & LXX it appeared about 70 times. Please read http://www.thehidingplace.net/topic.cgi?forum=54&topic=28

David Taylor doing good job by study the Bible carefully - 2 Tim. 2:15. You can find the information, where David Taylor received from by read page two of that topic.

Church was already there long time before New Testament.

I find there is a refer verse of Matt. 16:18-19 in Genesis 32:28. When Jacob was wrestle with an angel. Angel asked him, what's his name. He said, 'Jacob'. Then, angel told him, his name is no more Jacob, changed to Israel.

I find there are three important key words of Genesis 32:28: power, men, and prevailed.

The angel said to Jacob, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: 'for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

Angel never saying, 'God and with JEWS'. He said, 'God and with MEN. Men means people either man or woman, even children also. Men could be ANY individual either race or nations.

Earlier, God talked with Abraham, he called him, "Father of many nations" - Gen. 17:5. Abraham is not the father of 'Jews'. He is the father of many NATIONS. Nations is any individual of the world- Gentiles. Even, Abraham is the father of Jews and Gentiles both.

I know, disps saying Israel means a phyical nation, where Jews dwell. Covenant theologians, amills, postmills, all know that Israel is a physical nation, where Jews dwell. We all know that word, 'Israel' appear in the Old Testament often, these speak of a physical nation, where Jews dwell.

But, there is more than a meaning of Israel. Israel have several meanings. Didn't you know Jesus Christ is Israel? - "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called son out of Egypt." -Hosea 11:1 fulfilled in Matt. 2:15 "And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 'Out of Egypt have I called my son.'"

Jesus Christ have many names. We all know that.

I can see Genesis 32:28 tells the same thingas what Christ told to Peter of Matt. 16:18-19. I find three important keys of Matt. 16:18-19:
'church', 'previal', and 'key'.

Christ told Peter, that He is the rock, he is built his church. Church means people either Jew or Gentile. Christ says, devil and the hell cannot destroy or success against Church. Because, Christ says, "And I will unto thee the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Christ speaks of his power was given to us, that we have power to preach the gospel to the world according to Matt. 28:18; and Acts 1:8.

Now back to Genesis 32:28.

Angel says, Israel means, 'A prince have power to give his people and will be successful or victory.' Jacob is called a price. But, also, Jesus Christ is our prince, didn't you know that according to Daniel 9:25?

We all know that, Israel have failed to God in the Old Testament period many times. Does God's covenant with Abraham was failed? No, God's covenant never failed him. Who failed the covenant? People, because of their sins and rebel against God.

Disps emphasis on Jeremiah 31:31-34 promised to the house of Judah, & house of Israel is not yet fulfilled, it is future, also, they saying, both are literal physical two houses of O.T. will be existed again during Millennial kingdom.

I understand Jeremiah 31:31-34 very clear, what it is talking about. During Old Testament period, Israel was a unity nation with all 12 tribes together under the reign of King David.

Before David becames King, Prophet Samuel told to King Saul, when after King failed God, he said to Saul, his kingdom shall be break into two kingdoms, Samuel's prophecy comes true and fulfilled about 200 or 300 years later around year 520 B.C. (you can correct me the year, if you want to). When after King Solomon's death, the kingdom became divided into two kingdoms, the two tribes - house of Judah located south, the ten tribes -house of Israel located north. Then, later, Assyrians invaded house of Israel, they were taken away into captivity. Then, later Babylonians invaded house of Judah, include Jerusalem, they were taken away into captivity.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 was taken place earlier before Babylon invaded house of Judah. He told them, God make a new covenant with both.

Later, Hebrews 8:8-13 fulfilled Jeremiah 31:31-34, as it revealed by Calvary, that Christ made a new covenant with many - Mark 14:24.

I understand of Jer. 31:31-34 & Heb. 8:8-13 both speak of the new covenant for everyone include all tribes of Israel. These are not talking about literal physical two tribes or kingdoms of Israel, it talks about spiritual nation, that we are now include with the new covenant (1 Peter 2:9). Calvary already make us both Jews and Gentiles reconciled together into one - Ephesians 2:12-22. Both house of Judah & house of Israel are ALREADY reconciled together under Calvary through the new covenant, it is fulfilled (Heb. 8:13).

You say, 'they' of Hebrews chapter 10 is not apply to us.

I already read Hebrews chapter 10, I understand whole context of chapter 10, what it talks about.

I understand the between old covenant & new covenant. Notice, 'they' of Heb. 10:2, it speaks of high priests of the Old Testament period. They were continue making offerings, but their offerings do not forgive people's sins. We notice there are compare or parallel of Hebrews chapter 10 on the between of old covenant & new covenant, old covenant - past, new covenant - present.

These offerings or daily sacrifices under the old covenant cannot forgive people's sins. Because all animals' blood are filty and, they are not God. These were the SHADOW (Heb. 10:1) show the types of Jesus Christ. When Christ came to earth, He already manifest to us through Calvary, that he make a new coveant with us through HIS OWN BLOOD.

Heb. 10:10 tells us, we(both Jews and Gentiles) are sancitied through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for ALL.

Christ said, "It is finished." Christ paid all our sins through his blood, that means, we are now under the new coveant, and Christ fulfilled Jer. 31:31-34 through his blood by the cross.

I don't have to explain all verses of Hebrews chapter 10 to you in this post. You can read and understand what the whole context of Hebrews chapter 10 talking about.

You should be aware of many IFB pastors saying to their congregation, that Hebrews chapter 10 does apply to us as Church well.

Often IFB pastors citied Heb. 10:25 to the congregation, that verse commands us to attend Church faithfully.

The book of Hebrews do not always apply to the Jews only, also, its apply to us as Church of Heb. 12:22-23 well.

Book of Hebrews talk lot about the covenant, we know that.

So, the book of Hebrews show us that God already make manifest to the world toward Jesus Christ, that we may understand the mystery of Jesus Christ(Col. 1:26-27).

The shadows of the Old Testament now manifest toward Jesus Christ (Col. 2:17; Heb. 8:5, & Heb. 10:1) The shadows were under the old coveant. But, now the old covenant is already fade away, and we are under the new coveant because of Calvary (Heb. 8:13).

Reading whole book of Hebrews is not difficult for us to understand what these are talking about.

Calvary is for everyone from the beginning to the end include Adam to the very last person at Christ's coming. There is only one family in God's house in the heaven. There is no division in God's house in the heaven. All who are in God's house is Christ's body as Bride well according Rev. 21:9-10 too.

Therefore, Church IS New Jerusalem, Christ's Bride.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

When did the old one end? What age was Christ born and teach in?

 

DPT

Several points (none in depth).

First, the bride is the church. The nation of Israel is never called the bride of Christ.

Second, the New Covenant was made with Israel as a nation, not with the church. Hebrews does not say that the NC has changed to be with the church. I am preaching from Hebrews 8 this week. My point is that in Heb 10, the author writes to the church and refers to the participants of teh NC as "them" not "us," meaning the nation of Israel, not the church. You stopped your NC discussion at v. 34, but the passage continues and it is what follows that makes even clearer still that the NC is not with the church.

I have been preaching through Hebrews and just finished chapter 7. IT was written to the Jews in the church, or probably a church made up predominantly of Jews. We don't know the exact location of the church. The point is that Hebrews never changes the NC to be with the church; In Hebrews, the NC is always with Israel.

Calvary did make both Jew and Gentile one, in teh church. It did not erase the promises of God to Israel has a nation. This is clear form the OT. You should abandon any system that changes that.

 

II Peter 3:4 clearly identifies the "scoffers" as Jewish because of their reference to "the fathers." Also note that these scoffers were not ignorant that God destroyed the world by a flood, but were "willingly ignorant" of that fact. Besides, what else was Peter talking about in II Peter 3 other than what he was referring to in I Peter 4:7? "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."

May God Bless...

 

So when the disciples asked about the end of the age, they were still in the Old Covenant age. Therefore their question concerned the age they were living in.