2 Peter 2:1 and Limited Atonement

Pastor Larry,

Calvinists do not believe more about the atonement than those who believe that Jesus died for all sinners. Don't kid yourself!

When a Calvinist preaches in the back of his mind he is thinking I am preaching to many who can never be reached because Jesus did not die for all of these faces/souls that I am preaching to with reference to the Gospel.

There is a clear difference.

 

Go listen to the link that I provided earlier. It will explain it.

How in the world do you know what a Calvinist is thinking? I do know what a Calvinist is thinking and I can tell you without any fear of contradiction that you are wrong. I don't know of any calvinist who has ever had such a thought. I know that I never have.

You really reached hard for that and you should not have. That was a plain old bad argument.

You continue to reveal that you don't know what you are talking about. Please get some teaching on this stuff. Don't keep repeating it.

Start by listening to that link.

 

[/b]Unless you believe that all men are saved, then you limit the atonement of Christ. This is so simple. God does not sene people to hell if they are covered by the atonement.

Yelling doesn't change it. You are simply wrong on your belief.

And notice that the deeds are the basis on which they are thrown in the lake of fire for judgment. Rev 21:8 says the same thing. Again, you are simply wrong.

So it is not sin to disobey God? If disobedience is not sin, then what is sin?

Do not speak in all caps. The next time, your entire post will be edited. Control your responses.

 

aa0310.

Yes I do.
You had said, It is offered to "everyone without exception", not as Calvinism has twisted it to mean, "everyone without distinction"!
Did you mean that it is to be offered to all men or that it is offered to all men? Put another way, do you believe that everyone gets the chance to hear the gospel message and so have a decision to make? If not who is to blame for these people not believing something they don't know about? How is it possible for these people to repent?
Since you say that salvation includes repentance then I would have to ask you how children are saved, if you do believe children are saved, how do they meet this condition? Are there exceptions to be made to the condition?
Atonement means reconciliation. Do you agree with this? If you do then why are men still going to Hell if Jesus paid the penalty for sin by being the sacrifice for atonement for all men reconciling all men to God?

johnp.

 

Pastor Larry,

Stop bluffing!

I have a friend in Allentown, Pennsylvania who is Reformed Baptist and has told me what he believes about spreading the Gospel. He has told me that in his thoughts, he knows that when preaching or witnessing takes place, he allegedly knows, it is not the Lord's will for all sinners to hear it and to respond savingly to the Gospel.

I'm not bluffing. His phone number is [taken out]. This is how I know what a Calvinist is thinking.

A brother in Christ,
Ray

Post edited to remove phone number. What wer eyou thinking Ray??? Never post anyone's personal information.

[ February 15, 2005, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Pastor Larry,

You said,

It is not Arminian theology that suggests, Limited Atonement. It is Calvinistic theology that dares to suggest this erring concept.

We do not limit the atonement. The Lord has set the plan and will hold men and women responsible for His plan to bring in His elect.

His plan is found in Mark 16:15-16. Every creature does not mean insects or animals, just human beings. ' . . . every creature means we are to preach to all, because all sinner's sin debt has been paid at the Cross. [Ezekiel 33:11d; I Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; I John 2:2]

Best regards to you.

 

...even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them...
Nothing is said about Jesus dying for those who will go to Hell. You are reading into the text. What did Jesus buy? He did not buy redemption He bought them. They belong to Him. They are His because as a purchase they belong to the purchaser. Then these false prophets are owned by the Lord.
The Despot reigns. He owns all things. He is the Lord Jesus Christ. Here in this passage we see the Despot not the Mediator. The verse, 2 Peter 2:1, is talking about ownership not redemption.
Matt 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
Matt 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
Is it the same word? If it is then;
Matt 13:44 The man buys the whole field for just a little piece of it. The piece where His treasure is. But apart from that it shows that the word is used of material possessions. He owns the whole field to do with as He likes. He bought in a non-redemptive sense.

johnp.

 

aa0310.

Bearing false witness is still a crime you know. You must bring proof with your charge.

johnp.

 

aa0310.

"the Lord...is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"

Let's use the whole verse.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Let's start with 'but that all should come to repentance.'
Now this must be limited because as Peter speaks many millions have already died unrepentant because He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
He is patient with you... Who is God patient with? Who are the 'you'? 2PE 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: Are the 'you'. 2PE 1:1 To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Are the 'you'. (Notice! They have received a faith.)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise... What's the promise? 2 Peter 3:4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised?

Peter is simply stating that God is withholding judgement day until all the sheep have been gathered. Don't worry about the scoffers they did the same to Noah. As soon as the last of the sheep are in they, since he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly, they, the scoffers, will follow their example. Just as soon as the sheep are in.

Now this must be limited because as Peter speaks many millions have already died unrepentant because He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. And; All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... Ps 147:19; Romans 2:12. Gal 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
And where there is no law there can be no Christ!
That kills your argument stone dead. God did not give His laws to any other nation and seeing as those without the law perish they perish because He chose not to reveal Himself to them willingly. They who perish without the law perish because God decreed their deaths.
He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. Limited Atonement.

johnp.

 

[John 1:11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.


If man could obey all the law, there would be no need of a Christ! But alas man cannot obey ALL the law, SO, God gave us The Christ!

 

johnp,

You said,

Sorry to draw you up short, but we are going to need a book, chapter and verse, showing us that our Lord is a Despot.

The dictionary definition of a despot means:

'a ruler exercising absolute power oppressively, or tyrannically.'

Even as sinners the Apostle Peter says in I Peter 2:25 that 'we were AS sheep going astray; but are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.'

Peter, the lead apostle, never used oppressive words like you Calvinists spawn on Christian congregations.

Jesus reigns! not like a human wicked despot. See where your theology is leading you to think, relative to the Christian God. No red star on your paper today. Do your homework.

 

Unless you believe that all men are saved, then you limit the atonement of Christ. This is so simple. God does not sene people to hell if they are covered by the atonement.</font>[/QUOTE]Is that supposed to be an apology for your false accusation? Or are you intending to let your false accusation stand?

 

Wes.

What do you mean we can't obey ALL the law we can't obey any of it? The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
By the way unbelief is a sin. Did Jesus die for the sins that the angels committed?

johnp.

 

Ray Berrian.

You don't sound very sorry! The verse is 2 Peter 2:1 and Jude 3 or 4.

Yes I know what the dictionary says thank you. What do those letters stand for that you put after your name sometimes, ThD, that is you is it?

What do you mean Ray man? He always uses oppressive words. What is Hell if not a threat? Coercion is not free will, "Vote for me or go to Hell." Is Despotic to us. It must be because we have just fought a war to remove one like that.

Hey! It's not my Theology it's God's.
My sticky's come from my teacher not you, Peter, the lead apostle, and not Rome.

johnp.

 

aa0310.

Oh! It was me that you were talking about! Well why did you not say? they probably have more "pleasure" in the death of the wicked than God Himself! You meant me! But you are doing the same again. If you have something against me bring the proof don't tell everyone to go looking for it.

Jesus Christ is a "Despot". You say that many argue that 2 Peter 2:1 is not about Jesus but God the Father. I agree with you. 2 Peter 2:1 is about Jesus. This makes Him The Despot.

That's funny you should mention Saddam I've just brought the war to Ray's attention. It was a good argument was it not, that coercion negates free will? "Vote for me or go to Hell." Are the only options. (I told you to stick around didn't I?) This makes the choice unfree because it comes with a threat.

I was going to have mercy but that you think you have a right to speak on behalf of the majority of board members I think it better to leave you in the pit you have dug for yourselves to teach you a lesson. Maybe a kinder Christian will wander by and throw you a rope.

Not only do you presume to speak on behalf of the majority of board members you also think you can decide my fate, or at least the fate of my thoughts. This is akin to book burning. Great! This type of persecution I can take!

 

johnp,

Some of us need to read a book, chapter and verse using the word, Despot. Are you sure you are not reading another religious, alleged, holy book?

 

No Ray I am sure I see it somewhere in the bible.

A strange sentence but I will reply in the spirit it was wtitten in. No Ray I think this might be part of the problem. Why don't you ask God instead of forever looking it up. You should be a teacher by now but you are not. A man of your experience should certainly have come across Calvinists saying this before no? A man of your considerable talents should know. You disappoint me when you have a go at me for calling God what He is, a Despot. But you seem to take exception! What the Hell has it got to do with you if I call Him by His title? You got that bonfire going yet? If there is a complaint to be made let Him make it that is what I say. So much for your vaunted free speech.

Another religion to yours sure. How's the company in that hole?

johnp.