2 Peter 2:20-22

[rstrats]

How do you get around Hebrews 6:4-6?

 

[Eric B]

It's amazing that with all the insistance that a person could net even choose to be saved, because that's [supposedly] a "work" by which a person "saves himself", yet, if a person thinks he is saved, then he must work ("produce fruits") to try to "persevere until the end", in order to realize his [potential] salvation, and until he does, his "assurance" is "fallible". So I guess, "eternal security" is not what each believer now is to have, but is the unknown (to all but God), state of those decreed to be saved. Also, a person cannot have faith by himself because his sin nature makes him "totally unable", yet they can come so close as to profess and think they were saved. How could they do even that if the sin nature makes us only run from God?

It's amazing that people who reject a simple "choice" to believe on the grounds that that is a "work" turn around and promote essentially a works salvation-- produce fruits or you won't make it to heaven!
As with any other form of works salvation, where do you draw the line? OK, a person openly living in adultery doesn't appear to be producing fruit, but what about all the sins we commit, that nobody sees? What about "minor" [apparently] ones that people do see? We are right back to the position the Pharisees and others were in, and what the entire New Testament preaches against.
Folks, salvation is by trusting in Jesus. We do good works to show that we love Him, not to try to "persevere until the end" to secure our salvation.
Many people in the New Testament, beginning with the ministry of Jesus Himself while still here, were hastily accepting Christ, but they did not understand what the purpose of His mission was. So they "believed" (John 8:31), but eventually their true fruits surfaced (v.37ff). Most others of this class while not disputing Jesus would show their true colors when persecution would come and they quickly abandoned Him. It's in this context that we have all the scriptures on perseverance until the end. Like the others, these people "believed" and followed for the wrong reasons. Remember, Israel was looking for a Messiah for mostly political reasons, so many really did not understand His Gospel message--that they needed to be saved from sin. They still thought of themselves as the "good guys" waiting for God to put down the "bad guys", yet they were just as sinful as the ruthless pagans. There is no thought of any Spirit bearing witness with their spirit, or them thinking they were saved. They had their agenda, and Jesus showed that they were not really following Him, though they professed. Today we have many cults, liberals, etc. who "believe" in Christ, but knowingly twist or reject parts of the Bible, and most do not even speak of thinking they are "saved", or if they do, they make up their own idea of how to be saved (being good, keeping certain works, being baptized into their group, etc.).
All of these are the people who "believed in vain", not someone who really they were saved, but fell into sin.
Whaen I see someone who professes Christ but lives in open sin, I question and wonder if he's really saved, but I can't declare that he is not. This is where "do not judge" comes in. Of course, I try to admonish them to repent. If they don't, I leave it in God's hand, not pronounce him
"unsaved". There are other evidences you can look for, such as the basis of their profession. One person I know seems to think he is Christian because he was raised in a Christian home. Of course, he'll say he "believes". He puts on an act around his family and church, but lives like a total heathen the rest of the time. So this person I can really question as not really understanding and accepting the true Gospel. (but I still can't be completely sure). So fruits aren't solely holy living, because then salvation does become tied to works.

 

[Eladar]

We do good works to show that we love Him, not to try to "persevere until the end" to secure our salvation.

The Bible instructs us to do good works in order to make our salvation sure. Evidently that is one of the reasons. As with many things in life, there is no single reason for doing things. Each act has many implications and does so many things at the same time.

In the end, our good works will be judged and we will receive the just reward, be it positive or negative.

As James writes, works and faith are two parts of the same thing. Works is to faith as the soul is to the body. Faith without works is like a dead body without a soul.

 

[Brutus]

Instead of minimizing the miraculous,deep,transforming nature of faith,and instead of denying that there are necessary life-changes that show the reality of faith,we should tackle the problem of assurance another way.We should begin by realizing that there is an objective warrant for resting in God's forgiveness of our sins,and there is a subjective warrant for God's forgiveness of our sins.The objective warrant is the finished work of Christ on the cross that "has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified"Heb.10:14.The subjective warrant is our faith that is expressed in"being sanctified."Then we should realize that saving faith has two parts.First,faith is a spiritual sight of glory(or beauty)in the Christ of the gospel.When you hear or read what God has done for sinners in the cross and the resurrection of Jesus,this appears to your heart as a great and glorious thing in and of itself even before you are sure you are saved by it.This idea comes from 2Cor.4:4,where Paul says that what Satan hinders in the minds of unbelievers is"seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,who is the image of God."For faith to be real there must be a supernatural"light"that God shines into the heart to show us that Christ is glorious and wonderful,2Cor.4:6.This happens as a work of the Spirit of God through the preaching of the gospel.Second,faith is a warranted resting in this glorious gospel for our own salvation.We say "warranted resting" because there is an "unwarranted resting",people who think that they are saved but are not,because they have never come to see the glory of Christ as compellingly glorious.These people only believe on the basis of wanting rescue from harm,not because they see Christ as more beautiful and desirable than all else.But for those who"see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ"their resting is warranted.What this means practically is that we should continually look to the cross and the work of God in Christ,because this is where God makes the light of the gospel shine.Secondly,we should continually pray for God "enlighten the eyes of our hearts"Eph.1:18.Thirdly,we should love each other,because as John said,"We know that we have passed out of death into life,because we love the brethren."In the end,assurance is a precious gift of God.Let us pray for each other that it will abound among us.

 

[Eladar]

We say "warranted resting" because there is an "unwarranted resting",people who think that they are saved but are not,because they have never come to see the glory of Christ as compellingly glorious.These people only believe on the basis of wanting rescue from harm,not because they see Christ as more beautiful and desirable than all else.But for those who"see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ"their resting is warranted.

I know that this could be a subject of another thread, but where is in the Bible? How do we know that the "unwarranted" just want to be rescued from harm? Is this Biblical or just man's implication?

As to something concrete Jesus says we must do in order to be saved, how about forgiving others? If we don't forgive others, our sins won't be forgiven.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Eric B:
It's amazing that with all the insistance that a person could net even choose to be saved, because that's [supposedly] a "work" by which a person "saves himself", yet, if a person thinks he is saved, then he must work ("produce fruits") to try to "persevere until the end", in order to realize his [potential] salvation, and until he does, his "assurance" is "fallible".

It is only amazing Eric, because you are not familiar with the issues involved. It is simple: God changes man so that he will respond in faith and repentance to be saved. God also gives man the ability to do the works of perseverance. It is all of God from beginning to end.

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Larry:
...I have talked to people living in constant adulterous relationships who are unwilling to repent who claim to be sure of salvation. I have pointed out to them that on the basis of Scripture, they do not give evidence of salvation. Therefore, their assurance is worthless...This (that is, eternal security itself and the assurance of eternal security, are) totally unrelated since we are talking about assurance, not eternal security. The two are not the same. Assurance is my knowledge of my own eternal security. I may have assurance without eternal security; I may have eternal security without assurance. Eternal security is the objective truth of salvation. Assurance is the subjective experience of that truth in my life.

If eternal security and assurance are unrelated, then, with respect to the adulterous relationship above used as an example, would it be possible that in reality, contrary to the observable evidence that would contend for their assurance as being worthless, they still are the elect?

[ March 07, 2002, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Nelson:
If eternal security and assurance are unrelated, then, with respect to the adulterous relationship above used as an example, would it be possible that in reality, contrary to the observable evidence that would contend for their assurance as being worthless, they still are the elect?

Yes it would be possible. If they are of the elect, then they will come to a place of repentance. We cannot tell what is going on in their heart. They may be suffering the intense conviction of the Spirit. They might repent. After all, consider David. He was an adulterer and lived in that state for a number of months. Yet he repented under the conviction of the Spirit. We do not know infallibly the condition of the heart. We can however judge ourselves and others based on the dictates of Scripture.

 

[Nelson]

posted by Nelson: If eternal security and assurance are unrelated, then, with respect to the adulterous relationship above used as an example, would it be possible that in reality, contrary to the observable evidence that would contend for their assurance as being worthless, they still are the elect?

posted by Larry: Yes it would be possible. If they are of the elect, then they will come to a place of repentance. We cannot tell what is going on in their heart. They may be suffering the intense conviction of the Spirit. They might repent. After all, consider David. He was an adulterer and lived in that state for a number of months. Yet he repented under the conviction of the Spirit. We do not know infallibly the condition of the heart. We can however judge ourselves and others based on the dictates of Scripture.

If such is the case, would it then be correct to say that, contrary to the Scriptural basis one may present to give evidence that they are not saved and, therefore, their assurance of salvation is worthless, the fact may be be that their assurance is not worthless if they are, in fact, the elect?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Nelson:
If such is the case, would it then be correct to say that, contrary to the Scriptural basis one may present to give evidence that they are not saved and, therefore, their assurance of salvation is worthless, the fact may be be that their assurance is not worthless if they are, in fact, the elect?

No, IMO, it would not be correct. Their assurance is still worthless because it is based on a faulty premise. They have no biblical basis for assurance based on clear revelation.

For instance, I may be quite sure that the sun will come out tomorrow. It may indeed happen. But if it does, it will purely coincidental. It will not be based on any rational or scientific reason for, last I checked, it is supposed to rain all day tomorrow.

The person who claims assurance in the midst of a sinful rebellious lifestyle has a false claim.

 

[Eladar]

the fact may be be that their assurance is not worthless if they are, in fact, the elect?

That is a mighty big if!

IF one is of the elect, then one will repent of a rebellious life and get right with the Lord before one dies.

 

[Nelson]

posted by Nelson:...the fact may be that their assurance is not worthless if they are, in fact, the elect?

posted by Tuor:That is a mighty big if! IF one is of the elect, then one will repent of a rebellious life and get right with the Lord before one dies.

However, the point I am stressing in light of a real-life situation Larry proposed as an example is that the assurance possessed is not necessarily worthless.

[ March 07, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

[Eladar]

God's elect are based on God's ability to see the future. Since we don't have this perspective, it is impossible for us to have a perspective on such a one's assurance one way or the other.

But you said 'elect', that puts a whole new spin on things.

 

[Eric B]

It is only amazing Eric, because you are not familiar with the issues involved. It is simple: God changes man so that he will respond in faith and repentance to be saved. God also gives man the ability to do the works of perseverance. It is all of God from beginning to end.

But if you're saying that your assurance is "fallible" since you have not yet persevered until the end, then it seems there is no real assurance, because God changes man, but you are not 100% sure he has changed you and gave you the ability to not just do the works but to keep doing to the end, so from our perspective, it appears that we must try to persevere, and we still may not (at least from what I seem to be reading). (I still wonder how any of these non-elect can come even this close to faith if God is the only one who can change their natures from wanting only to run from Him.)

From Tuor:

The Bible instructs us to do good works in order to make our salvation sure. Evidently that is one of the reasons. As with many things in life, there is no single reason for doing things. Each act has many implications and does so many things at the same time.

There may be verses that appear to say this, but then our ultimate salvation does rest in us, (our works) and not God. Once again, I believe such scriptures are telling us "You say you're saved, so prove it" (James 2:18); not that doing the works is what makes/keeps us saved, but that this would separate the true believers from those who followed Christ for ulterior purposes. A person truly saved can still sometimes lack fruits, so for this purpose James is admonishing them to act like they have faith.

 

[Eladar]

A person truly saved can still sometimes lack fruits

Where in the Bible does it say that?

They may live in rebellion at some time(prodigal son), but in the end a 'truely saved' (elect) must live in accordance to God's commands.

[ March 08, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Tuor: God's elect are based on God's ability to see the future. Since we don't have this perspective, it is impossible for us to have a perspective on such a one's assurance one way or the other.

But you said 'elect', that puts a whole new spin on things.

And that is why I stated that though one may be committing sin, for example the adultery example Larry proposed, his profession of Christianity and his assurance of being saved is not necessarily "worthless" because, as has been conceded, it is possible for that one to truly be the elect of God.

 

[Eladar]

The only problem with your question is that we are not to judge other's salvation. We are only to judge if a fellow Christian is living in open rebellion to God's commands. If so, then we are instructed to shun this person.

Since Churches, on the whole, are unwilling to do this(I've never seen it happen or even heard of it happening), even judging others for shunning is a waste of time.

 

[tyndale1946]

Tuor just because you have never seen it happen in the churches you have been in does not mean it never occurs. Church discipline has always been in effect in the Primitive Baptist Church and we follow it according to biblical principles. The following is an article from one of elders of the past Sylvester Hassell

Righteousness can have no fellowship with unrighteousness, not light with darkness, nor Christ with Belial."---2 Cor. 6:14-16. The faithful children of God bear, in this respect as well as others, the image of their Father, who hides His face from His disobedient people, in jealousy for His glory, and in love to them---not to destroy them, but to save them. In loving sorrow, we are to "withdraw from every brother that walketh disorderly."---2 Thess. 3:6. When we disobey this injunction of His apostle, we dishonor God, corrupt the church, and injure the offending brother. Gospel discipline is neither malice nor Pharisaism. Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians contains more instructions in regard to discipline than any part of the New Testament, and yet it also contains, in perfect consistency the glorious thirteenth chapter on Charity, of Love. Faithful discipline is true, and not false charity. Without proper government, the church would degenerate into the world, and families, schools, states, the universe itself, would be reduced to primeval chaos. Faithful gospel discipline has always been a characteristic mark of the true Church of Christ; and its absence has been a mark of the Anti-Christ.

The wisdom that is from above has no respect to the persons of men, and is without partiality.---James 2:1-9; 3:17; Jude 16. It uses the same discipline towards church members who are learned, exalted, and wealthy, as those who are ignorant, lowly, and poor, and thus proves its heavenly origin.---Deut. 10:17; 2 Sam 14:14; Matt. 23:16; mark 7:14.

May the God of Israel mercifully deliver us from that evil spirit of idolatry, of self, and man, and the world., which, when it reigns, always confuses and divides His people, and breaks the fellowship of the churches of the saints.---1 Cor. 14:33; Eph. 4:1-6... Brother Glen

 

[Pastor Larry]

To Nelson, As for “worthless assurance,” it is very much worthless if it is based on the wrong thing. Assurance renders a person neither saved or unsaved since assurance is not inseparable from salvation. So yes, the assurance is worthless because it is based on the wrong thing. T

To Tuor, God’s knowledge of the elect is not based on his ability to see the future. It is based on his sovereign grace in which he elects some to salvation. As for church discipline, it does happen. It has happened here since I have been the pastor. It was very sobering but necessary. It is easy to talk about in theory but much more difficult when the time comes to say “Now is the time to pursue it.” It was after a period of months of confrontation and urging where there was open hearted rebellion and rejection of God’s will for life. As for judging one’s salvation, we are told to count certain people as heretics and publicans. In other words, when a person has been disciplined from the church, the assumption on the part of the church is that the person is unsaved and they are to be treated accordingly.

 

[tyndale1946]

Pastor Larry and all the other brethren here I didn't mean to imply that there wasn't any church discipline in your congregations. I would never infer that and can't imagine how a church could survive without church discipline. Sometimes things come into the church that have to be dealt with and all you that are pastors know that.

Though the times are sorrowful occassion they must be dealt with and taken care of in the house of God. Failure to do so will only bring destruction to the children of God in this life only. None of Gods laws are outdated and still apply especially in the house of God.

Tuor you stated you have never been a witness to this if I read your post correctly. Since this is one of the marks of the church, which is church discipline I suggest you find a church where this is practiced. You have to deal with these various things as they raise their ugly ungodly head in the house of God. Read the seven churches of Asia and make no mistake about it these things have never left the church IMHO... Ask any pastor here whose had to deal with it in their church. I'm sure they have plenty of stories to tell! I know I do!... Brother Glen