Ian,
Ray Berrian said:
'An evil heart does not need to love God; it only needs to sense
conviction and rebellion against the Lord. The Holy Spirit approaches
the sinner to 'convict him of sin, of His righteousness and the future
judgment.'
Ian said, 'Yes - and what will the evil heart do when it is so convicted? Tremble, like
Felix or the demons. It takes a good heart to respond with repentance and
faith, Luke 8: 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who,
having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit
with patience.'
Ray: It may be a new concept to you, but demons sins were not paid for on the Cross. And as to Felix [Acts 24:24-25] notice that his evil heart, 'reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and of the future judgment.' He had a will and wanted to reject the Gospel for the time being. Felix 'heard Paul concerning the faith in Christ.' This text proves that Resistible Grace, an Arminian doctrine is correct. He could have been saved in these moments, but we are never told that he ever bowed to Christ's authority and salvation.
Ian said, 'You are separating these things in time, when they are intimately
connencted to each other. Like repentance and faith, they cannot be
separated by time even though they are separate things. The neww heart is
given on hearing the preached word; immediately the sinner responds to
that word in repentance and faith.'
Ray: God has ordained different approaches to Himself and His blood atonement. Under the O.T. they brought the lamb; under the N.T. we come directly to the Lamb of God. In the Millennial Kingdom on earth, sinners will bow to Jesus and all people will nevertheless be saved through His Divine atonement, no matter which era they lived under.
Ray: God knocks at the heart's door; He does not ramrod His way into a
sinner's life.
Ian: Exactly so. He never ramrods His way in, but always makes us willing in the
day of His power. He draws us with the bands of love - but that drawing is
irresistible, divinely sweet and irresistible to the hungry heart.'
Ray: This sounds somewhat reasonable but it is wrong. The Lord is not a Divine Puppeteer dancing some off to Heaven and the majority to Hell. Contrary, to what you and other Calvinists think, He really loves everyone in the sinful state. [Malachi 1:9, John 3:16 & Acts 17:30] He is not partial or prejudiced toward anyone.
Ray said, 'Your passage above speaks to the fact that during the future Great
Tribulation and during the Millenimum Jesus will persuade many
sinners to follow the Lord. This has nothing to do with the church age.'
Ian said, 'I won't get into the modern error that is called Dispensationalism, but just to say that even if this passage did not speak of the church, it certainly teaches
Irresistible Grace.
Ray is saying, 'Irresistible Grace is a serious error. Study: Isaiah 63:10, Jeremiah 19:15, John 5:40, Acts 7:51] Resisting the Holy Spirit is a Divine fact and reality. If you were a pastor you would have seen this more than once.'
Ian said, 'ALL Israel will be saved, not just 'many sinners' as you
phrase it. For ALL Israel to be saved, one must see that God is sovereignly
converting them, giving them the same new heart you and I possess.'
Ray: Wrong! During the Millennium and in Zechariah 14:18-19 most clearly points out that not all citizens of the world will accept Christ. Vs. 18 speaks of Egypt which is a Muslim nation. I will agree with you that the Israelites will recognize and accept their Messiah/Savior. Why wouldn't they, they are God's chosen people. During the church era most are rejecting Jesus as their Messiah.
Ian said, 'On the subject of the New Covenant, it IS that covenant under which we are
saved. It is that covenant we celebrate every Lord's Day at His Table. It is
everlasting covenant referred to in Heb.13: 20 Now may the God of peace
who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the
sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21make you complete
in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His
sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. We
are New Covenant people, Ray.'
Ray: Thanks brother; as if I did not understand that. They would not have conferred on me the doctorate in theology, if I denied this.
Ray said, 'Free will is a Divine verity. If salvation was not available to all, God
would become unjust and the One who arbitrarily damns the majority
of sinners. No chapter in the Bible warrants or blesses this concept.'
Ian said, 'Why is God obliged to offer salvation to anyone? Are all men not damned by
their own sin? Is God not free to save none or to save any as He chooses -
seeing we have no right to salvation? Does not Scripture declare this from
beginning to end?'
Ray: God has determined in eternity past to provide salvation for all sinners. [John 3:16] The Lord God decreed this to be His plan.
Ian said, 'Examples: God chose Israel and passed by ALL the other
nations. He revealed Himself to them, His message of salvation was
preached to them alone. The Egyptians, Moabites, Edomites, Hittites, etc.
perished in their sins. Anytime God chose to move outside Israel with the
gospel, it was at His discretion, and it was infrequent. Rahab, the widow of
Zarephath, etc.
Ray: 'Pharaoh knew about the Lord God up front and personal but he and his nation rejected the Lord God of the universe and world.'
Ian said, 'Paul reminds us, Rom.9: He says to Moses, "I will have
mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on
whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor
of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to
the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show
My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He
hardens.'
Ray: 'This passage has absolutely nothing to do with saving the remnant, and damning the trillions upon trillions of sinners. The Lord raised up Pharaoh, who refused the Lord and His salvation, to show His superior power and authority over this great and powerful leader from Egypt. You spoke of this in verse seventeen.'
Ray said before: 'God never overrides the sinner's will to bring about
faith. Faith is always a sinners response to the Lord. [John 1:12,
Hebrews 4:2, I Peter 1:7,9,21]
I find it interesting that you never responded to these passages; I
realize that it is most difficult to dovetail these truths into Calvinistic
theology. Work on it and you will become a Biblical theologian with all
presuppositions fallen by the wayside.'
Ian, 'I just didn't see your point. Calvinists do not say God overides the sinner's
will. We say He changes the sinners will.'
Ray: I understand that you think that God converts the soul and then, after this alleged fact, He allows sinners to receive His salvation.
Ian said, 'But you asked for a response to these specific verses, so here goes:
John 1: 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to
become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
To those who receive Christ, who believe in Him, God gives the right to
become the children of God. Calvinists and Arminians agree on this. What is
your point?
Ray: If sinners don't receive Christ neither do they receive His gift of grace; that is my point.
Heb.4: 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but
the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in
those who heard it.
Ian said, 'The gospel has no profit for those who have no faith. Calvinists and
Arminians agree on this. What is your point?
Ray: 'They did not commingle their faith with the truth of the Gospel, therefore, they were lost. You cannot blame the Lord for their lack of personal faith. God does not push off faith on some sinners, while withdrawing that offer toward the majority of sinners.'
I Peter 1: 7that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious
than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise,
honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,... 9receiving the end of
your faith--the salvation of your souls. ... 21who through Him believe in
God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith
and hope are in God.
Ray: James says that this experience that we call faith is our faith or in Biblical words, 'Your faith.' This faith is not God's faith nor is it given to certain sinners. The offer of grace is to all sinners while faith is a sinner's response to His offer of grace.
Our faith is proved by trials, resulting in glory at His appearing; salvation is
the end result of our faith; our faith and hope are in God. Calvinists and
Arminians agree on this. What is your point?
Ray: Again this faith comes from our heart, will, decision and response to His convicting power coming from the Holy Spirit.
Wrong. When Israel was tempted to go after foreign gods, Joshua
said to his beloved nation, 'And if it seem evil unto you to serve the
Lord, (then) choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the
gods which your fathers served . . . . but as for me and my house, we
will serve the Lord.' Only a spiritually unsaved blind man could not see
the truth of free will and human choice being included in the 'image of
God in man.' [Joshua 24:15]
Ray: Sinners are not Totally Depraved but they are depraved. They understand the truth and idea of the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ, because of the aid of the Spirit of God. Sinners have a conscience, a will, and the power to either reject or to accept Jesus.
Ian said, 'These verses show only that God demands a choice to be made; they do
NOT tell us evil men are able to choose the good. It is the good heart that
chooses to do the good - Joshua.'
Ray: Read in the Bible, 'Lord be merciful to me a sinner.' His Word does not say, 'Lord be merciful to me, Your converted saint.
Ian said, 'I'm sorry you regard me and all Calvinists as 'spiritually unsaved blind men'.
You must account for that to your Master.'
Ray: You may be saved but you are blinded to the fullness of the truth of His truth. God the Son will judge both you and me and all others. [John 5:22b]
Ray said before, 'Wrong. Jesus will look the same in Heaven when we get there as He
did while He was on earth. He will, however, have a spiritual body as
we also will, that is not made of flesh and blood.
Ian said, 'You use this fact to assert that our bodies are part of the Divine image -
Ray: Our bodies are part of the Divine image. Read Revelation 1:12-17.
Ian, 'but when Adam was created, God had no body.'
Ray: God may have had a physically styled Body like He presently has in Heaven. Before the Garden of Eden He could have had a body like I referred to above.
Ian said, 'Also, if the image refers to our bodies, would it not require God to have both a male and female body?'
Ray: We have already been told that Jesus was the Son of Man on this earth; not the Son of a Woman.
I had said, 'God is not free to choose evil - His choice is determined by His
nature.' To which Ray replied
I have not decided about your first clause above, yet. But when Jesus
was going through His temptation, you are suggesting that He could
never have chosen the evil/wrong. If this is true then it was not a
bonified temptation.'
Wow! I'm surprised you hold such a view. You deny the impeccability of
Christ; is that the common view in your Seminary? Where exactly did you
get your Th.D?
Ray: 'You infer that there is no other position than the Impeccability of our Lord. In case you do not know, many theologians believe in the possibility of the Peccability of Jesus while being tempted in the wilderness. Read: "Basic Theology" by Dr. Charles C. Ryrie, Moody Press, p. 304. The well known Dr. Charles Hodge, "Systematic Theology" Eerdmans Press, 1960, 2:457, believes that it was a possibility that Jesus could have yielded to evil while in the wilderness experience as mentioned in the Bible.
Ian said, 'Of course, I hold that the temptation was genuine, even though Christ could
not have sinned. Just like the offer of the gospel is genuine, even though
men are not able to accept it.'
Ray: This is a foolish statement. It is disingenuous, insincere and deceitful to say and think that the Gospel is offered to sinners, but God causes most of them not to receive Himself. Arminian theologians do not believe that the God of holiness, could also be deceitful.
Ray said before: Your statement above would be correct only if sinners were Totally
Depraved. But, since they are depraved and yet are created 'in the
image of God' [James 3;9]they are not as evil as you pretend.
Ian said, 'I'm glad you see the difference. At least you face up to the logical conclusion
of partial depravity - that men are not so evil as Calvinism paints. But
Scripture happens to agree with Calvinism's assessment of man's nature,
Rom.3:10-18.'
Ray: If sinners were totally depraved, we would be forever frozen in our sins and rebellion. The Bible points out that the Holy Spirit is able to convict and convince sinners of their need of Christ, even before salvation takes place.
Come on now, Ian, you and I and everyone else knows that John 1:9
does not have the same amount of commentary as Romans 9:13.
Ian said, 'That is not what you said, Ray. Here is what I responded to: Also, you will
seldom to almost never see a Calvinist explaining John 1:9, because it
smacks against their view of a mistaken, Total Depravity.
Ray: 'For sure John 1:9 does not teach Total Depravity. It suggests that
since Jesus came to earth we have a foundational idea as to who the
Lord God really is in His Divinity. When we read the Gospel or hear
good preaching a sinner realizes that Jesus is supernatural and they
sense a conviction of their waywardness. His Light leads to
everlasting life if they open their hearts/lives to Him.'
Ray: Study John 1:9 and you will then understand how a sinner can receive Christ in John 1:12.
Ian: So you say John 1:9 is fulfilled in the preaching or reading of the gospel.
How does this happen to 'every man coming into the world'? Does 'every
man' not mean every man, or just those who hear the gospel?
Ray: Of course, all who hear the Gospel will be challenged by the Spirit to receive Christ.
Ray said before: If you included in your theology the passages in James and John you
could never believe in the misnomer of Total Depravity. Yes, all
sinners are depraved but no so much so that they are without a will,
conscience, or mind with which to repent of their sins and believe in
Jesus for salvation.
The passages you referred to, John 16: 8And when He has come, He will
convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: and James
3: 9With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who
have been made in the similitude of God. are completely compatible with the
doctrine of Total Depravity. It is your misunderstanding of what Calvinism
teaches that leads you to such an erroneous view.
Ray: Good. I am glad that you also believe that God can convict a sinner of his or her sins.
Ian: Calivinists believe all men are capable of conviction; Calvinists believe all men
are made in the image of God. All men have a will, conscience, mind - but
we deny that that mind can repent and believe. We say that God must
change the sinner's heart so that his will, conscience, mind is no longer emity
with God but rather gladly submits to Him.
Ray: I understand your dilemma. Even with the sinner's depravity he still has the facilities with which to turn from his sins to the Lord God.
Ray said before: Study the Divine justice of God and you will have to surrender the
wrong idea of Unconditional Election. Like you said before, His nature
prohibits Him from doing certain things. Another example is that He
cannot have mercy on some sinners without having compassion
toward all lost souls. I believe you said, 'His choice is determined by
His nature.' This is correct.'
Never mind what the Scripture says? Study this, Ray, Rom.9: 14 What shall
we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He
says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will
have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not
of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For
the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you
up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in
all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He
wills He hardens. It just plainly refutes what you here allege.'
Ray: As I pointed out before in this particular post, Romans 9 does not portray Jesus as a Domineering, Autocratic, Divine, Puppeteer. His love, justice and mercy goes out to all sinners. [Acts 2:21; 16:31]
Oh, by the way, why do you want to know where I received the Th.D. degree? Some of you need to serious listen to some of us who have been trained in the seminary, or are you like the Calvinist, lay-theologian, Mr. Camping, who vigorously teaches that Christians should leave their local churches and only listen to him. When a person really thinks that Calvinism is the truth, they are only one small step away from accepting more errors.
Study more carefully my friend.
Ray
