2. Pre-Trib Rapture2 is scriptural

[Grasshopper]

OldRegular]Only the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, including all the elect, and thus all the redeemed of all time, inhabit the New Heavens and New Earth. There is no sin there.

Revelation 22:11,14, & 15 affirm this.

11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Who are these people:


Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Are they not invited to enter the city:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Is not the water of life in verse 17 not the same water of life of verse 1?

Is this not speaking of a current reality not something in future eternity?

At least one Old Testament Prophet did prophesy of the New Heavens and New Earth:

Isaiah 65:17. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

But does not death and curses exist in this New Heavens and New Earth:

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

[OldRegular]

Posted by OldRegular
Only the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, including all the elect, and thus all the redeemed of all time, inhabit the New Heavens and New Earth. There is no sin there.

Revelation 22:11,14, & 15 affirm this.

11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Response by Grasshopper
Who are these people:

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Are they not invited to enter the city:

In 21:1, 2 we are told of the New Heavens and New Earth and the New Jerusalem coming down to earth. The city is the New Jerusalem, identified as the Bride of Jesus Christ, the Church. Most of the events described in Chapters 21 & 22 occur after the Great White Throne Judgment when Satan and all the lost are cast into the lake of fire and the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth. Those identified in 22:15 are those who are the lost and have been cast into the lake of fire. They are outside the Church and cannot enter in.

Response by Grasshopper
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Is not the water of life in verse 17 not the same water of life of verse 1?

Is this not speaking of a current reality not something in future eternity?

The water of life in verse 22:1 has reference to life in the New Heavens and earth. That description continues down through 22:15 which as noted above identifies those who are without the city, the Church. In verse 16 the scene shifts back to the time in which John wrote the Revelation, continues in the present, and will continue until Jesus Christ returns to bring all things to fruition: a general resurrection and judgment, the New Heavens and New Earth, and all that are not in Christ cast into the lake of fire. Verse 22:17 is the invitation to all to come and partake of Salvation, the water of life, freely. Of course it is my belief that only the elect will respond.

Posted by OldRegular
At least one Old Testament Prophet did prophesy of the New Heavens and New Earth:

Isaiah 65:17. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Response by Grasshopper
But does not death and curses exist in this New Heavens and New Earth:

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

I cannot fully explain verse 65:20. It may just be a description understandable [metaphorical] to the reader of life in the New Heavens and New Earth. I believe Scripture clearly teaches that there will be no death in the New Heavens and New Earth. This is the eternal dwelling place of those who belong to Jesus Christ, who have been promised eternal life. In Revelation 21:1-5 we read of life in the New Heavens and New Earth.

1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[Me4Him]

1. Rapture

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: (Comforter)

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until "HE" (Comforter) be taken out of the way.

8 And then...... shall that Wicked be revealed,


2. Tribulation period.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


3. Jesus return.

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; (witnesses) and every eye shall see him,

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


4. Great white Throne.


Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne,

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,


In the rapture, Jesus reaps the righteous, unsaved left on earth,
Second coming, Angel reap the unsaved, righteous left on earth.

Rapture, no one sees Jesus coming or leaving with us, Twinkling of an eye.
Second coming, every eye sees him, us coming, we don't leave.

No unsaved are resurrected to stand in Judgment until the GWT. (sheep "AND GOATS")
_________________________

 

[Grasshopper]

[/i]



In 21:1, 2 we are told of the New Heavens and New Earth and the New Jerusalem coming down to earth. The city is the New Jerusalem, identified as the Bride of Jesus Christ, the Church.

Correct, however I believe it is now in existence not speaking of the future state of the Church. The New Jerusalem(the Church) is found in the New Heavens and New Earth. I think this is what Paul teaches in Galatians

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Old Covenant was associated with the "Jerusalem which is now"(physical) , the New Covenant is associated with the Jerusalem above(new Jerusalem)spiritual.

Those identified in 22:15 are those who are the lost and have been cast into the lake of fire. They are outside the Church and cannot enter in.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Do they cease sinning? If not, then sin never ends.

The water of life in verse 22:1 has reference to life in the New Heavens and earth. That description continues down through 22:15 which as noted above identifies those who are without the city, the Church. In verse 16 the scene shifts back to the time in which John wrote the Revelation, continues in the present, and will continue until Jesus Christ returns to bring all things to fruition: a general resurrection and judgment, the New Heavens and New Earth, and all that are not in Christ cast into the lake of fire.

On what basis do you make the statement that the context has now shifted? One enters the New Jerusalem(church) by drinking of the water of Life in verse 1, the same water Jesus offered the Samaritan woman:

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Why do those already redeemed living in the New Jerusalem need to drink of the water of Life? .

Verse 22:17 is the invitation to all to come and partake of Salvation, the water of life, freely. Of course it is my belief that only the elect will respond.

You have the water of Life of verse 17 a different water than found in verse 1.

I cannot fully explain verse 65:20. It may just be a description understandable [metaphorical] to the reader of life in the New Heavens and New Earth. I believe Scripture clearly teaches that there will be no death in the New Heavens and New Earth.

If the death and cursing can be metaphors why not the term New Heavens and New Earth?

Spurgeon:

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

John Lightfoot:

"That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deut. 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.' Jer. 4:23; 'I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light,' &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isa. 65:17; 'Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered,' &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Cor. 5:17, &c. (vol. 2, pp. 18-19)

This is the eternal dwelling place of those who belong to Jesus Christ, who have been promised eternal life. In Revelation 21:1-5 we read of life in the New Heavens and New Earth.

1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

A good Reformed man such as yourself is probably familiar with Owen's work: http://www.all-of-grace.org/pub/others/deathofdeath.html

He seemed to think death was abolished, as did Timothy;

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[Ed Edwards]

There is a big difference between the Millennial Messianic Kingdom and the New Heavens/New Earth. People who eliminate a real/physical Millennial Messianic Kingdom run into logical problems & impossibilities by attributing to the New Heavens/New Earth what belongs to the Millennial Messianic Kingdom.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

You made list verses of '1. Rapture'.

John 14:3 - Christ doesn't say to his disciples that he will come before Tribulation. Many pretribs use John 14:1-3 for rapture passage. But, this passage is talking about His promise that he is coming again, and He have a prepared room in Father's house for us that he will receive us at His coming. This is a promise. This passage have do nothing with the timing of his coming.

1 Cor. 15:51,52 - "in the twinkling of an eye" is speaking of how quick and supernatural power force of our bodies all shall be changed from mortal into immortality follow at His coming same time. Also, "at the last trump" is not the trump, 'at the last trump' means the final trump. It fits perfectly refer with Rev. 11:15-18 when the seventh trumpet sounds, this present old earth shall become God's perfect holy kingdom-perfect conditional(which speak of new earth0, that both heaven and earth shall be unity become one into perfect eternity condition, and Christ shall possess new earth and to reigning it as our King- as literal and physical. That means, all evil things, Satan, his fallen angels, and all sinners will be destroyed and whipping all out completely. Rev. 11:15,18 telling us, at the seventh trumpet sounded, all dead shall be resurrection, and to be judged, to judge all saints, given rewards to the saints, also, to punish all unbelievers cast away into lake of fire. Rev. 11:18 pictured as clearly describe of great white throne/judgment seat of Christ shall take place follow at the last (seventh) trumpet sounded. So, this is clearly posttribulational.

1 Thess. 4:16-17 does not giving the specific timing of the resurrection and our caught up. Neither this passage saying that it will be happen before Tribulation either. But, this passage tell us there is our hope that we shall see our love ones again as great reunion day shall be follow at Christ's coming same time.

2 Thess. 2:1 doesn't saying that His 'coming' shall be before Tribulation. But, 2 Thess. 2:1-4 clearly telling us that our gathering together shall not come till come apostasy occured first, and the evil will influencing over the individual of the Church of their spirituality. So, 2 Thess. 2:1-4 cannot be pretribulational.

2 Thess. 2:7,8- Many pretribs interpreting "he" of vs. 7 identify as Holy Spirit as Comforter. But, Apostle Paul doesn't saying it. The only way that we can understand verse 7 and 8 of "he", what Paul was talking about by read the context start with verse 3 thru 9 focus on "man of sin" is talking about Satan, not Holy Spirit. How does I know?

vs. 3- "man of sin"
vs. 3 - "the son of perdition"
vs. 4 -"himself"
vs. 4- "he"
vs. 4 - "himself"
vs. 4 - "he"
vs. 6 - "he"
vs. 6 - "his"
vs. 7 - "the mystery of iniquity"
vs. 7 - "he"
vs. 7 - "he"
vs. 8 - "Wicked"
vs. 9 -"him"
vs. 9 - "SATAN"

The context of verse 3 thru 9 focus on one person - Satan. None of this context mentioned on Holy Spirit.

Also, the only way that we should be able to understand verse 6 to 8 better, when we read verse 5 says: "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Early in my Christian life, I was struggled with verse 5, I had hard time to understand what verse 5 is talking about. Then several years later, finally I now understand verse 5, what it is talk about. The only way that you should be able to understand verse 5 better, you have to find a refer verse which do fits with verse 5. I found a refer verse of verse 5 in 1 Thess. 3:3-4, as Paul said: "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves KNOW that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, *when we were with you, we TOLD you before that we should SUFFER TRIBULATION, even as it came to pass, and YE KNOW*"

Verse 4 is clearly fit with 2 Thess. 2:5 - "when I WAS yet WITH YOU" same with 1 Thess. 3:4 -"WE WERE WITH YOU". Also, verse 4 fits with 2 Thess. 2:5 - "I TOLD YOU" same with 1 Thess. 3:4 -"WE TOLD YOU".

Also, 1 Thess. 3:4 of "YE KNOW" is same with 2 Thess. 2:6 - "And NOW YE KNOW".

Both 1 Thess. 3:3-4 and 2 Thess. 2:5-6 described the same thing as repeat to remind Christians to know and not to be confusion.

1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us that we are appointed for tribulation, it must come to pass first BEFORE our gathering together. same with 2 Thess. 2:1-6 telling us, that our gathering together shall not come yet till we must through tribulation first(Acts 14:22).

I better stop now. Because this post is already long. So, I better make another post to continue discuss on 2 Thess. 2:6-8. To be continued.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

To be continue...

2 Thess. 2:6-7- Paul described to them, that Satan is holding back.

Notice, word, "letteth" & "let" of 2 Thess. 2:7 in King James Version. these words in KJV of 2 Thess. 2:7 seem not clear. In Greek translation of "let" & "letteth" actual say, "hold back" meaning restraining. Verse 6-7 is clear support of Rev. 17:8 & Rev. 20:2-3 which speaking of Satan is being now holding back by the Holy Spirit, even, same as Christ have the power to hold Satan back from being to reveal. That means, Satan is now limited and hold him back from doing great deceives against the nations. Because Christ already given the keys(power & authority) to Church (Matt. 16:18,19) to spread the gospel over the nations. God doesn't allow Satan to deceive the world, because God knows the time is not yet for Satan to deceive the world.

2 Thess. 2:7a describes of "the mystery of iniquity doth already work" means that the wicked is still working throughout over the world for hundreds of years according to 1 John 4:3, means the sins and wicked are already spread ove the world, and we are already seeing many "antichrists" out there in world. It means that, there are many people who deny that Christ came to world in the flesh that, He is 100% God.

Also, "mystery" of 2 Thess. 2:7a is easily identify with Rev. 17:5 as "Mystery Babylon", which speaking of wicked spiritual system is already working and spreading over the world. Because Satan is the prince of the air. He uses his agents like Jesuits, false prophets, false teachers, false pastors, false religions, etc. trying to influence the truly Church, by cause them falling away.

Right now, Satan is being holding back from being to be revealed to the world, because God knows it is not his time yet(2 Thess. 2:6). When God knows the RIGHT TIME to come. Then, God will tell Satan to allow him to get out of the way(to be "loosed" of Rev. 20:3 & 7) being freed from being limited of his power and deceives.

I believe when God sees the spiritual conditions within indidviduals of truly Churchare being become worsen and compromsing with the world, means that when the truly Christians are already fall away from their beginning state, stopped serve the Lord, continue in sinning daily. That is the apostasy within Church's spiritual conditions. We already seeing the spiritual conditions within true Church are already apostasy become worsen long time ago to today. When God sees Church's spiritual conditions become worsen and looks terrible bad. Then, God will become FED UP with Church(not being pleaseing with the Church of present time). Then, when God knows the RIGHT TIME to come, God will tell Satan that, he shall be no longer being limited of his deceives and miracles. God will allow Satan to doing greater deceives and miracles, God will give the true Church to face the REAL TEST or TRAILS that is called, "great tribulation" same as persecutions. God will allow Satan to use his agents like as "New World Order" to make war against Christians (Rev. 13:5) for a "little season"(Rev. 20:3b)-short period. That means, Satan will persecute against Christians. Many Christians will be persecuted and killed for refuse to worship Satan. Even never know any Christians COULD BE deceived for believing in Satan's miracles(Matt. 24:24), thought that he is the truly God.

That is what 2 Thess. 2:6-9 is talking about.

2 Thess. 2:6-7 have do nothing with picture of "Rapture" compare as "take out of the way". It speaks of Satan's restricted limited shall be lift up or no longer as it removed "chains" from Satan, same as pictured of Satan shall be loosed out of the bottomless pit(Rev. 17:9 & Rev. 20:2,3, & 7) THEN Satan shall be revealed to the world.

I believe Satan will be transform into man as human, to be act as Messiah to make visible in the presence of the world, even also to all Christians too. Satan will copy Christ as what Christ did 2,000 years that, He was angelic beings, have no body till He came to earth to became flesh to reveal the world that he is the true Messiah. Satan will do the same thing with Christ in the great tribulaiton.

That is what 2 Thess. 2:6-8 is talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him,

You made list verses of '1. Rapture'.

John 14:3 - Christ doesn't say to his disciples that he will come before Tribulation. Many pretribs use John 14:1-3 for rapture passage. But, this passage is talking about His promise that he is coming again, and He have a prepared room in Father's house for us that he will receive us at His coming. This is a promise. This passage have do nothing with the timing of his coming.

Israel, as the "wife" of God, and "MOTHER" of Jesus, can't be married to Jesus.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Under the law, one must die before the other is free to be married to another.

Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law;

Obviously, God is not dying, so that leaves Israel to die.

When you're "Born again", you become a "NEW CREATURE", the "old man" (body of sin) is "Dead".

Now you've been freed from the law and can be married to another.

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

No body can attend the "Lamb's marriage supper" unless they've been "Born again", Israel was invited, but refused the offer.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Mt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (Jerusalem 70AD)

Mt 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, (pre trib rapture) he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought forth the man child. (Jesus)

The reason Israel enter suffer the Trib, is because "SHE" is still considered as the "MOTHER" of Jesus,

If she had been "born again/New creature", dead to the law, she could be married to another, or be the "Bride of Christ", instead of his "mother".

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

As "Chastisement/Stripes" in their "FLESH", they "literally" die to be "free from the law" and "Married to another".

For believer, (born again/new creatures) Jesus suffer the "Chastisement/Stripes" in "HIS FLESH", so we can attend the "Lamb's marriage supper" as the "BRIDE". (church)

"at the last trump" is not the trump, 'at the last trump' means the final trump. It fits perfectly refer with Rev. 11:15-18 when the seventh trumpet sounds, In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The "seven trumpets" in Revelation are the "Voices of Angels", not "GOD".

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Angels can't call people from the grave,

only the "TRUMP" (voice) of "JESUS/COMFORTER/HOLY GHOST" can call people from the "Grave".

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (Day of Christ)

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (Comforter/church)

8 And then....shall that Wicked be revealed, (trib period)

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (Second coming/Day of the Lord)

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (lamb's marriage supper)

My advise, pay attention to the "minor details" in scripture.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

WHOA!! Your belief and interpreting of "Israel" as "Mother" of Jesus, like as Christ have two wives?????? That is so strange and no sense. God only have one wife of all children from Adam to the very last person at the end of the world.

Israel/Church is Christ's wife.

There is only ONE seed that is Christ, all children of Abraham who have the same faith as O.T. saints have faith in Christ just like as N.T. saints have the same faith in same Jesus on the same boat. Christ only have one wife. Christ don't do adultery, you know that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

Oh please.....

There is no difference between "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 & "seventh trumpet" of Rev. 11:15. Both are same. Even, in Rev. 10:7 tells the same thing.

Matt. 24:31; 1 Thess. 4:16; and 1 Cor. 15:52 all are agree that 'trumpet/trump' are the same thing and event all are taking aboput coming of Christ. Well even also Rev. 11:15-18 telling the same thing.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him,

WHOA!! Your belief and interpreting of "Israel" as "Mother" of Jesus, like as Christ have two wives?????? That is so strange and no sense. God only have one wife of all children from Adam to the very last person at the end of the world.

Israel/Church is Christ's wife.

There is only ONE seed that is Christ, all children of Abraham who have the same faith as O.T. saints have faith in Christ just like as N.T. saints have the same faith in same Jesus on the same boat. Christ only have one wife. Christ don't do adultery, you know that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

At least you are finding out there's a little more to the scriptures than you knew existed.

The "Trib" must be explained using the "precepts/principles" given in scripture, if not, you really don't understand the scripture.

And being "Dogmatic", you won't get there,

"Humble as a "child" ring a bell????

 

[Grasshopper]

There is a big difference between the Millennial Messianic Kingdom and the New Heavens/New Earth. People who eliminate a real/physical Millennial Messianic Kingdom run into logical problems & impossibilities by attributing to the New Heavens/New Earth what belongs to the Millennial Messianic Kingdom.

Actually it is those who try to make the New Heavens and New Earth something they are not that run into the impossibilities.

 

[Grasshopper]

Israel, as the "wife" of God, and "MOTHER" of Jesus, can't be married to Jesus.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Under the law, one must die before the other is free to be married to another.

God divorced the 10 Northern Tribes (Israel) long ago.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.


However God promised to restore her:

Jer 3:12 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith Jehovah; I will not look in anger upon you; for I am merciful, saith Jehovah, I will not keep anger for ever.
Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against Jehovah thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith Jehovah.
Jer 3:14 Return, O backsliding children, saith Jehovah; for I am a husband unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hos 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in justice, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Fulfilled :

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ.


Heb 12:22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels,


Hos 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them that were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Fulfilled:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Grasshopper,

Well saying, Amen! On "wife" reply to Me4Him. Preach it! :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: // There is no difference between "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 & "seventh trumpet" of Rev. 11:15. Both are same. //

This is totally 100% YOUR OPINION. As a fellow Baptist Brother I let you have your own opinion. Further I grant you the Liberty in Christ to read the Bible how ever you want. But your conclusions are your private conclusions. Your conclusions may not be the truth. But you have the right to be wrong - as often as you wish.

IMHO (In my humble opinion) the 'last trumpet' of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the Last Trumpet of the Time of the Gentiles. The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11:15 is the 'last trumpet' of the 70th Week of Daniel (Tribulation Judgment Period). The Last trumpet of the Millennial Messianic Kingdom appears to be unspecified in the Holy Scripture: the Bible.

As a conclusion of my humble opinion, we get that the first sound that will be heard by our new bodies is the Last Trumpet of the Time of the Gentiles blown to signal the end of the Time of Gentiles and the beginning of the Bema Seat (AKA: Judgment Seat) of Christ - a time when Church Age saints will be rewarded with rewards earned by Jesus through them. That is in heaven. On earth the Last Trumpet of the Time of the Gentiles will be the First Trumpet of the 70th Week of Daniel (Tribulation Judgment Period).

Anyway, the pre-trib rapture2 being what it is: a resurrection1 of the dead in Christ followed quickly by a rapture1 of the Time of the Gentiles: that Last Trumpet will be the first we shall hear in or new bodies. For our beloved Deaf Brothers and Sisters - the first thing they hear will be the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52. This is true if the deaf die while the Lord tarries OR if the deaf person continues to live IN CHRIST.

But to get there, you have to assume, guess, figure out, hope, or etc.:
There is a difference between "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 & "seventh trumpet" of Rev. 11:15. Both are sounded on the Day of the Lord.

 

[OldRegular]

Me4Him,

Oh please.....

There is no difference between "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 & "seventh trumpet" of Rev. 11:15. Both are same. Even, in Rev. 10:7 tells the same thing.

Matt. 24:31; 1 Thess. 4:16; and 1 Cor. 15:52 all are agree that 'trumpet/trump' are the same thing and event all are taking aboput coming of Christ. Well even also Rev. 11:15-18 telling the same thing.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

You are absolutely correct DeafPostTrib!:thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Eph 4:4-6 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope at your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

This scripture not saying G-d have only ONE wife.

I have only one wife, I am but a hu-man.
G-d makes the rules; I follow them.

 

[OldRegular]

Eph 4:4-6 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope at your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

This scripture not saying G-d have only ONE wife.

I have only one wife, I am but a hu-man.
G-d makes the rules; I follow them.

Ed, Mormons believe that God has more than one wife, does that make you a Mormon?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed's Opinion Survey:

Opinion1:
There is no difference between "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 & "seventh trumpet" of Rev. 11:15. Both are same.

Holders of opinion1:
DeafPosttrib - post #30
OldRegular - post #36

Opinion2:
There is a difference between "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 & "seventh trumpet" of Rev. 11:15. Both are sounded on the Day of the Lord.

Holders of opinion2:
Ed Edwards - post #35

What is your opinion?

 

[OldRegular]

DeafPosttrib: // There is no difference between "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 & "seventh trumpet" of Rev. 11:15. Both are same. //

This is totally 100% YOUR OPINION. As a fellow Baptist Brother I let you have your own opinion. Further I grant you the Liberty in Christ to read the Bible how ever you want. But your conclusions are your private conclusions. Your conclusions may not be the truth. But you have the right to be wrong - as often as you wish.

IMHO (In my humble opinion) the 'last trumpet' of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the Last Trumpet of the Time of the Gentiles. The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11:15 is the 'last trumpet' of the 70th Week of Daniel (Tribulation Judgment Period). The Last trumpet of the Millennial Messianic Kingdom appears to be unspecified in the Holy Scripture: the Bible.

As a conclusion of my humble opinion, we get that the first sound that will be heard by our new bodies is the Last Trumpet of the Time of the Gentiles blown to signal the end of the Time of Gentiles and the beginning of the Bema Seat (AKA: Judgment Seat) of Christ - a time when Church Age saints will be rewarded with rewards earned by Jesus through them. That is in heaven. On earth the Last Trumpet of the Time of the Gentiles will be the First Trumpet of the 70th Week of Daniel (Tribulation Judgment Period).

Anyway, the pre-trib rapture2 being what it is: a resurrection1 of the dead in Christ followed quickly by a rapture1 of the Time of the Gentiles: that Last Trumpet will be the first we shall hear in or new bodies. For our beloved Deaf Brothers and Sisters - the first thing they hear will be the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52. This is true if the deaf die while the Lord tarries OR if the deaf person continues to live IN CHRIST.

But to get there, you have to assume, guess, figure out, hope, or etc.:
There is a difference between "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 & "seventh trumpet" of Rev. 11:15. Both are sounded on the Day of the Lord.

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Ed I don't see any mention of trumpet in the above passage so how can you say: On earth the Last Trumpet of the Time of the Gentiles will be the First Trumpet of the 70th Week of Daniel.[/i] Are you reading something into Scripture that is not there?