#2 Second Coming of Messiah Yeshua

[Ed Edwards]

Dictionary of PreMillennial Theology (Kregel, 1996), Mal Couch, general Editior says on the MacDonald, Margaret article, page 244:

// Margaret Macdonald (1815-ca. 1840) is alleged by Dave MacPherson, a posttribulational polemist to be the originator of pretribulationism as a result of a prophetic revelation in the spring of 1830. Even though there is no actual evidence to support his claim, MacPherson is correct that his spurious charge has served to make the fifteen-year-old Scottish lass "a household name in Christian circles." //

 

[Me4Him]

Dictionary of PreMillennial Theology (Kregel, 1996), Mal Couch, general Editior says on the MacDonald, Margaret article, page 244:

// Margaret Macdonald (1815-ca. 1840) is alleged by Dave MacPherson, a posttribulational polemist to be the originator of pretribulationism as a result of a prophetic revelation in the spring of 1830. Even though there is no actual evidence to support his claim, MacPherson is correct that his spurious charge has served to make the fifteen-year-old Scottish lass "a household name in Christian circles." //

Here's where the pre trib rapture started.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all be changed,

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (day of "Christ") and by our gathering together unto him, (Jesus coming himself/no angels)

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (comforter/Church)

Ro 11:25 that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


2th 2:8 And then..... shall that Wicked be revealed,

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Check out posts #86 & #87 over here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1346780#post1346780

They that the New Testament concept of 'Mysteries' ALONE shows that the pretribulation rapture3, pre-millennial Second Coming, Futurist Eschatology is VALID. To bad for the ONE AND ONLY ONE SCRIPTURE MANTRA, it isn't just one scripture but more than 13 scriptures.

:godisgood:

It is wonderful how God repeats over and over the best parts.


DeafPosttrib on another topic: // Why cannot you willijng to accept Scriptures telling us very cloear that Christ will come again at once on the last day? Are these passages or verses too hard for you read and understand? //

Strange, in the suggested 'Mysteries' writing of mine, the Scriptures speak plain. But, sorry, they don't teach the postribulation rapture1/resurrection1 ONLY error as clear as they teach the pretribulation rapture2.

 

[OldRegular]

If you cannot understand one passage of Scripture how do you expect to understand 13?

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is a very simple, straightforward, literal description of the general resurrection and judgment spoken by Our Lord and Savior. Why won't you dispensationalists accept it? I fear you have all succumbed to what the Apostle Paul warned of:

2Timothy 4:4.And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Titus 1:13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Titus 1:14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The men: John Darby and Cyrus Scofield

The Fable: The so-called revelation to Margaret MacDonald.



Sadly you are even denying Scripture:

Galatians 3:8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now what Gospel did Paul say was preached to Abraham? He had already taken the Galatians to task for perverting the Gospel.

Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

There is only one Gospel, the Gospel that Jesus Christ preached?

Mark 1.1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mark 1:14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mark 1:15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

What was the Gospel that Paul preached? The one and only Gospel, the same Gospel that Jesus Christ preached.

Acts 20:25-28
21. Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23. Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24. But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 28:24-31
24. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Now how did Paul define the Gospel:

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Amy.G]

They that the New Testament concept of 'Mysteries' ALONE shows that the pretribulation rapture3, pre-millennial Second Coming, Futurist Eschatology is VALID.

Rapture 3?

Now there are 3 raptures?

 

[OldRegular]

Rapture 3?

Now there are 3 raptures?

Perhaps there is a Limbo and a Purgatory. I vote for an even dozen "raptures" since we are using RC words.

 

[Me4Him]

If you cannot understand one passage of Scripture how do you expect to understand 13?

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is a very simple, straightforward, literal description of the general resurrection and judgment spoken by Our Lord and Savior. Why won't you dispensationalists accept it?

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

We don't accept it because the whole story isn't told in consecutive verses, here a little, there a little.

In the Rapture, only the "righteous" are raised from the Grave, Unsaved stay dead.

Jesus return, all "Deceased" rightous souls return with him, the Unsaved, stay dead. (first Resurrection)

At the GWT, those who lived/died during the MK are raised, some will be "SHEEP", and the "UNSAVED DEAD RISE".

So you see, a little here, little there, you get the "TRUTH".

Now, in case you missed it, it's only at the GWT where "SHEEP" and "GOATS" stand in Judgment together,

When Jesus returns, unsaved dead are not Judged, Angels separate the "LIVING", "WHEAT/TARES", casting the tare into Hell with the usaved to wait for the GWT.

So, ya see, "Wheat/Tare"..."Sheep/Goats" can tell you a lot.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rapture 3?

Now there are 3 raptures?

Only two that I know of.
This is called a typing error BTW, the number is part of the term to distinguish between different meanings of the same word:

Rapture1 = the 'caught up' of 1 Thess 5:17; a set of ACTIONS by Messiah Jesus
Rapture2 = a event by Messiah Jesus before the Tribulation Period Judgement consisting mainly of a Resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1 as defined in 1 Thess 4:13-18
Rapture3 = speculative third meaning of 'rapture'

The use of numbers to delineate which term you are using is recommended by communication experts to help enhance actual human communication (as opposed to grunts and simian chest thumps.

 

[Amy.G]

Only two that I know of.
This is called a typing error BTW, the number is part of the term to distinguish between different meanings of the same word:

Rapture1 = the 'caught up' of 1 Thess 5:17; a set of ACTIONS by Messiah Jesus
Rapture2 = a event by Messiah Jesus before the Tribulation Period Judgement consisting mainly of a Resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1 as defined in 1 Thess 4:13-18
Rapture3 = speculative third meaning of 'rapture'

The use of numbers to delineate which term you are using is recommended by communication experts to help enhance actual human communication (as opposed to grunts and simian chest thumps.

:laugh:
Well Ed, you might as well communicate with grunts and chest thumps. It would make as much sense to me as most of your posts.
Sorry brother. :saint:

 

[Todd W. White]

I like your post Me4Him!

A lot of the problems people get themselves into comes from failing to follow Scripture alone and study it systematically.

When a haphazard approach is used, it messes up ones' understanding of the Bible. A systematic approach to theology prevents this.

This is why I preach expositionally, verse-by-verse, through books of the Bible, and we exegete the passages as we go.

We started Genesis tonight (Wednesday). Sunday mornings, we're going through Ephesians, and through Colossians on Sunday evenings. All in verse-by-verse format.

Doing so makes you unlearn things you thought you knew, and helps keep you from going off on tangents...

 

[OldRegular]

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

We don't accept it because the whole story isn't told in consecutive verses, here a little, there a little.

In the Rapture, only the "righteous" are raised from the Grave, Unsaved stay dead.

Jesus return, all "Deceased" rightous souls return with him, the Unsaved, stay dead. (first Resurrection)

At the GWT, those who lived/died during the MK are raised, some will be "SHEEP", and the "UNSAVED DEAD RISE".

So you see, a little here, little there, you get the "TRUTH".

Now, in case you missed it, it's only at the GWT where "SHEEP" and "GOATS" stand in Judgment together,

When Jesus returns, unsaved dead are not Judged, Angels separate the "LIVING", "WHEAT/TARES", casting the tare into Hell with the usaved to wait for the GWT.

So, ya see, "Wheat/Tare"..."Sheep/Goats" can tell you a lot.

The so-called rapture is fiction devised by John Darby, probably based on the so-called revelation given Margaret MacDonald, and propagated by the Scofield Bible. There has not been a single or any number of Scripture presented that show anything called a rapture. John 5:28, 29 state very clearly that the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth

Now that is a very easy Scripture to understand but dispensationalists reject it because it does not agree with their manmade fable.

 

[Todd W. White]

What do you think of J. A. Seiss?

 

[Me4Him]

I like your post Me4Him!

A lot of the problems people get themselves into comes from failing to follow Scripture alone and study it systematically.

Thanks.

I don't read other material or listen to other preacher, save my Pastor, I sit here at the computer with the KJ installed, start reading and just let the spirit show/teach me whatever,

I'm not one of those who have it all figured out, never will, the deeper you go, the deeper it gets.

When a haphazard approach is used, it messes up ones' understanding of the Bible. A systematic approach to theology prevents this.

One thing I've learned is to understand the "Spiritual" definition of words/symbols as used in scripture,

The "Rapture" is referred to as "Resurrection" and it causes confusion in prophecy.

We started Genesis tonight (Wednesday). Sunday mornings, we're going through Ephesians, and through Colossians on Sunday evenings. All in verse-by-verse format.

Doing so makes you unlearn things you thought you knew, and helps keep you from going off on tangents...

Did you know the "plan of Salvation" is "foreshadowed" in Genesis/Adam/Eve events surrounding them??

I've got a brief outline I can e-mail if you want it.

 

[Me4Him]

The so-called rapture is fiction devised by John Darby, probably based on the so-called revelation given Margaret MacDonald, and propagated by the Scofield Bible. There has not been a single or any number of Scripture presented that show anything called a rapture. John 5:28, 29 state very clearly that the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth

Now that is a very easy Scripture to understand but dispensationalists reject it because it does not agree with their manmade fable.

What I'd like to know is "WHO'S" doctrine are you reading/believing???

 

[OldRegular]

What I'd like to know is "WHO'S" doctrine are you reading/believing???

God's, the Bible which tells us:

John 5:28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is real simple Me4Him. Try it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

John 5:28-29 uses the term 'hour'. What does it mean? Please look a dictionary. Thank you.

Here is what Strong's says:

G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally
or figuratively): - day, hour, instant,
season, X short, [even-] tide,
(high) time.


"G6510 appears in 100 verses 106 times in the KJV (1769 family of editions, e-sword.com KJV with Strong's Numbers) The word 'hour' appears in the KJV1769 in 82 verses for 89 times. Note there is NOT a direct relationship between 'hour' and 'hora'. BTW, my father was trained to repair watches back in 1947-48. Did that make him a 'hora'-'ologist'?

IMHO the common meaning of 'hour' in the Bible especially in prophecy in the N.T. is 'the appropriate time'.
Note that the meaning of 'day' in Bible prophecy is 'the appropriate time'
By simple things equal to the same thing are equal to each other:

hour = the appropriate time = day
hour = day

Luke 12:46 (KJV1611 Edition, e-sword.com ):
The Lord of that seruant will come in a day when hee looketh not for him, and at an houre when hee is not ware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the vnbeleeuers.

Here in this parable, day = hour. Be sure your scripture definition of 'day' is easy to make it equal to your definition of 'hour'.

Mat 24:42 (KJV1611 Edition)
Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.

Luk 21:34 (KJV1611 Edition)
And take heed to your selues, least at any time your hearts be ouercharged with surfetting, and drunkennesse, and cares of this life, and so that day come vpon you vnawares.

Interesting, the day your Lord comes is the hour you don't want the Lord to catch you unawares.

In God's dispensations (economy): hour = day

 

[Me4Him]

God's, the Bible which tells us:

John 5:28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is real simple Me4Him. Try it!

Here's one of the fundamental canons [rules] of statutory construction:

Effect must be given to every word of a statute and that no part of a provision will be read as superfluous.


Most cases are won/lost in court by the interpretation of the law, and the addition of a "simple word", (and/or/other) can change the meaning of the law "AND" to whom it applies.

When it is found that two laws are in conflict because a word is defined different in each law, then the Courts/Congress have to agree on a definition for that word so any future laws written won't be in conflict.

The Bible is "GOD'S LAW", do you think it is written any different???




Case in point:

KJV.
Ac 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

NIV.
30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

"Under the law", The KJ would charge the person with the "murder", but the NIV would charge them with a "CONTRACT" murder.

TWO DIFFERENT LAWS.

The law views a person who is capable of actually committing the murder much more dangerous than a person who is incapable and must "hire" someone.

Under God's law, which charge would God place against the person???




Another, Case in point:

KJV.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

NIV.
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

The "day of Christ", the "Christ" is coming as the "Bridegroom" only for his "Bride".

The "Day of the lord", Jesus is coming as the "LORD" over the whole earth.



Do you believe the "SPIRIT" in "inspiring" what was to be written, would make these "Mistakes"???

"I DON'T".

I look for "GOD" in the "word made scripture" as much as the "word made flesh", and I find him both places.


John 5:28. Marvel not at this: forthe hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


No unsaved person is "Resurrected", or "hears Jesus's voice", until the GWT.

"ALL" means "ALL".

Anyone can read the bible, but it's not the same book when you start understanding it.

 

[OldRegular]

None of the above proves anything except that you are ignoring the clear teaching of Scripture:

John 5:28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You people want to chop up Scripture [day of the Lord, day of Christ, day of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of heaven, Kingdom of Jesus Christ, and endless other Scripture] and reassemble it in an attempt to prove your dispensational fable.

Scripture tells us that: Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I would like to say something on John 5:28-29, look this passage carefully:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Christ tells us very clear when Christ shall come at Second Coming, ALL people over the world both believers and unbelievers shall be risen from the graves at the same time. NOT some will remain stay in the graves during His coming. Christ tells us that EVERYONE all will be rise at once to face the judgment seat of Christ follow at His coming same time.

Is John 5:28-29 too hard for you to understand?

Christ teaches us very clear that there will be ONE future resurrection follow at His coming. Nowhere in the Bible say that there will be three different future resurrection events such as 1. "pretrib resurrection of the Church Saints", 2. "Second Advent resurrection of the Tribulation saints & O.T. Saints", 3. "at end of literal Millennial Kingdom resurrection of the unsaved people".

That why dispensationalism doctrine makes look so complex and confusion on resurrection event.

I rather follow what Christ actual saying of John 5:28-29, what dispensationalists' teachings.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

None of the above proves anything except that you are ignoring the clear teaching of Scripture:

John 5:28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You people want to chop up Scripture [day of the Lord, day of Christ, day of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of heaven, Kingdom of Jesus Christ, and endless other Scripture] and reassemble it in an attempt to prove your dispensational fable.

Scripture tells us that: Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

We only take a "little from here, a little from there", "line upon line", and put all the pieces of the "PUZZLE" together,

Then we know what the complete picture looks like. :thumbs: