2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

PrimePower7: "Ed, Revelation 20 says there is 1000 years between the First and the Second Resurrections, not 1007."

Actually Revelation 20 says there is 1000 years between the
end of the First Resurrection and the start of the Second
Resurrection (recall this 1,000 years is called
'an hour' in John). 7-years is the legnth of the day
in which the First Resurrection takes place. How long does
the Second Resurrection take place? The Bible really doesn't
say. So the time from the start of the First Resurrection
until the end of the Second Resurrection will be 1007 years
plus some more.


Unfortunately i've zapped* my answer to the first
part of the post of PrimePower7. Maybe God doesn't me to
say it now?

*I had the whole thing selected and did a
'control V'. That zapps the stuff selected and
puts in the contents of the saved buffer

 

[Ed Edwards]

Missing post restored:

Below 'dispensation' is the English translation of
the Greek 'oikonomia'. From this Greek word, we get
our word 'economy'.

Ephesians 1:9-12 (KJV1611 Edition):
Hauing made knowen vnto vs the mysterie of his will,
according to his good pleasure, which he had purposed in
himselfe,
10 That in the dispensation of the fulnesse of times,
he might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heauen, and which are on earth,
euen in him:
11 In whom also we haue obteined an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of him
who worketh all things after the counsell of his
owne will:
12 That we should be to the praise
of his glorie, who first trusted in Christ.


God knows the end from the beginning.
In God's economy that which is to be is already.
In God's economy the blind see, the lame dance,
the deaf hear.
In God's economy 7- years = 1 day.
In God's economy 1,000-years = 1 hour.

PrivePower7: //ED THIS IS ALL PRIVATE INTERPRETATION! 7 years is one day? Common!//

Interesting Freudian slip: "common!" instead of "come on!"
-- very interesting Freudian slip

 

[PrimePower7]

Ed, what's the deal, man? There is nothing about Revelation 20 saying 1000 years between "the end" of the First resurrection and the second. You are wrestling the Scripture...but, I love ya, brother

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

#1. Satan is bound for 1000 yeara and has no power to deceive
#2. Satan is RELEASED after the 1000 years
#3. Christ reigns with the saints of the FIRST resurrection for 1000 years NO mention of Satan or deception or sin or suffering or more death in that time.
#4. The righteous – the “blessed and holy” the “priests of God” are those raised in the FIRST resurrection before the 1000 years. Only THESE are not subject to the 2nd death.
#5. The REST of the dead (the wicked) are not raised until AFTER the 1000 years and over THESE the 2nd death DOES have power. They are not called “The blessed and holy”

The resurrection of vs 4 where the souls of the righteous “came to Life” (as opposed to being alive while dead) – is the event that starts the 1000 year clock ticking. This is “the event” Paul sees in 1Thess 4 – the “First Resurrection” the Resurrection of the righteous. It is also clear that the “second death” has no power over those raised before the 1000 years.
There is “another resurrection” for the text says The Rest of the dead did not “Come To LIFE” until the 1000 years were completed.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

It is clear that the “Second resurrection” and the “second death” are related to each other. Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are subject to the “second death”. Notice that at the 2nd resurrection – at the end of the 1000 years – those raised “are on earth” and Satan goes to gather them “From the four corners of the earth”.

 

[BobRyan]

It is correct to point out that first there is the "First resurrection" and then 1000 years later there is the "Second resurrection" from a direct and straightforward reading of Rev 20.

Nothing in 20 says " a day is 7 years" and nothing in Rev 20 says "it takes a day to raise the saints". But it is likely that within a single day - they are raised.

If someone can show that "A day" in scripture is 7 years - then do it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

What does day mean?
Just look in your dictionary

This location:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=day
has 10 definitions of the noun 'day'.

The actual definition of 'day' usually
in prophetic scriptures is
6.B. A period of opportunity or prominence

BTW, every time i talk about 'day' i have to meniton
that the dictionaries never do have about the
48-hour earth day. While a 'day2a' is 24 hours
long at one place on the earth, there is a 'dayx'
which is the 48-hours that a 'day' lasts at
any points on the earth.

Anyway, get a search engine that lists out all
the occurances of 'day' and check them out against
the dictionary (you may have to read some context
to figure out which definition is intended.

The Crosswalk concordance ( htpp://crosswalk.com/ )
shows the HCSB with 1259 verses containing 'day',
the KJV 1769 with 1239.
E-sword shows KJV1769 - 1490 'day' verses
E-sword shows KJV1611 - 1556 'day' verses
(the KJV1611 includes the Apocrypha).

i.e. different versions have different numbers
of 'day' because the meaning varies from place
to place. It is important to get the right meaning
of words from the Bible to understand the Bible.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV1611):
And they cried with a lowd voice, saying, How long,
O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not iudge and
auenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were giuen vnto euery one
of them, and it was sayd vnto them, that they
should rest yet for a little season, vntill
their fellow seruants also, and their brethren
that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
those dayes shall be shortned.

These are parallel passages.
Both show early in the tribulation day
those born-again, mostly gentile, church age,
Christian elect saints who were raptured/resurrected
at the dawn of the tribultaion day. They are talking
to Jesus (praying face-to-face) about the Jewish
Israeli elect saints who won't

 

[Ed Edwards]

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
-----------------------------------

The DAY OF CHRIST (KJV)
or DAY OF THE LORD (some alternate readings)
in 2 Thess 2:2 refers to the
time from the revelation of the antichrist
(man of perdition) /v.3/
to the destruction of
the antichrist /V.8/, this period is also known
as the Tribulation period. As shown above it
is the ONE DAY, ONE SEVEN, ONE WEEK, 7-year
period in which God in His WRATH sends
tribulation upon the earth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

These are what i'm calling "the church age"
or Gentile Age:

Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks
against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven
him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil,
the harvest is the end of the age,
and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned
in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the
wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
"Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have
commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,
even to the end of the age." Amen.

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now
in this time--houses and brothers and sisters
and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age
marry and are given in marriage.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry
nor are given in marriage;

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the
disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish
the wisdom of this world?

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who
are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age,
nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers ofthis age knew;
for had they known, they would not have crucified
the Lord of glory.


1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool
that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded,
who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel
of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine on them.

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age,
according to the will of our God and Father,

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might
and dominion, and every name that is named,
not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age
not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain
riches but in the living God, who gives us
richly all things to enjoy.

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and
worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly in the present age,


Gentile Age:

Luke 21:24 (nKJV):
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,
and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This excerpt from the Mount Olivet Discourse
parallels Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
All are the MOD speaking of Jesus, when
He predicted what would happen in the future.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
It is correct to point out that first there is the "First resurrection" and then 1000 years later there is the "Second resurrection" from a direct and straightforward reading of Rev 20.

Amen, Brother BobRyan -- Preach it!

This is the "Day of the Lord"
mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10. But Preterists and other
a-mills deny a literal/physical 1,000 years.

 

[Ed Edwards]

IMHO Matthew 24:4-14 refers to the
signs that the Church age continues.
Here is just one of those signs:

-----------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.
---------------------------
Notice how this sign gets repeated over
and over. Each occurance is another
sign that the Chruch Age continues.
After the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
of the Gentile Age saints, then we probably
won't see many of these signs any more.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
This is the "Day of the Lord"
mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10. But Preterists and other a-mills deny a literal/physical 1,000 years.

Yes - the literal 1000 years is clear in the text.

It makes you wonder what would bias someone to read the text and then say "not 1000 years" every time it SAYS "1000 years".

Nice to be in agreement with you on something Ed.

(That typically happens on "Some point" with everyone - but it is nice to find them in a discussion).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that the church age continues - but I would argue that it continues all the way to the 2nd coming.

Primarily because it is the church that is raptured in 1Thess 4 at the resurrection of the righteous.

And in Rev 20 the first resurrection is the resurrection of the Righteous "The blessed and holy" over whom the 2nd death has no power.

That resurrection is at the Rev 19-20 2nd coming of Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I agree that the church age continues - but I would argue that it continues all the way to the 2nd coming.

THere is only a 7-year
difference. But what a 'quality of life'
difference.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The following is a repeat.
I speak of the use of polysyndeton,
a rhetorical divise using the English 'and'
or the Greek 'kai' instead of the
Microsoft square or dot.

Do we really find it strange that a
prophetic scripture uses a
rhetorical divise

------------------------

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

[BobRyan]

You said the gathering in vs 31 is the rapture --

Matt 24
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Are we "Agreeing again"??

You just placed the rapture AFTER the point where ALL EYES see Christ comig in the coulds of heaven - and AFTER the tribulation!

That is exactly what I believe.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bob Ryan: "You just placed the rapture AFTER the point where ALL EYES see Christ comig in the coulds of heaven - and AFTER the tribulation!"

That is EXACTLY what i've NOT been saying.
We are on page 10 of this topic and you
say exactly the opposite of what i have been
teaching

The Rapture will be before the Tribulation
Period. Your passage seperates itself
v.31 is NOT after (in time) the Tribualtion.
In V.30 it says every one will morn.
I'll be happy if Jesus comes to get me.

At the Pretribulation rapture I'll be glad
to see Jesus, not being mornful

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:


3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Originally posted by BobRyan:
You said the gathering in vs 31 is the rapture --

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Matt 24
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Are we "Agreeing again"??

You just placed the rapture AFTER the point where ALL EYES see Christ
</font>[/QUOTE]See the quote of MAtt 24 ABOVE to SEE where your claims for vs 31 place the rapture resurrection.

This is not me - it is you.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

You lost me Bob.
I don't know what you are trying to tell me.
You don't understand what i'm trying
to tell you.

I have to go to bed now and teach a dozen
guys a Sunday School lesson On Romans 1 tomorrow.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Did you follow what i said here?

----------------------------
Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.
-----------------------------------
This totally goes against what you are saying.
We don't agree at all. There is a difference.