2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[BobRyan]

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

Dan 9: 24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

Here in Daniel we find the 70 week prophetic times pan of (70 prophetic weeks, 490 literal years). This times pan is explicitly quantified by the number 70 (70weeks) just as the other times pan of Daniel 9 - the 70 year times pan in Dan 9:2 was explicitly quantified by the number 70.

In the remaining verses of Daniel 9 we will see the single times pan of 70 weeks detailed into a timeline covering the entire 490 year period.

This prophetic timeline that forms that complete contiguous time span of 70 weeks works exactly as all other Bible times pans with numeric values encompassing the entire span of time. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Dan 9:2 show a prophetic span of time without gaps. The 400 years of Genesis 15:13 also show a span of time that is reliable and valid for calculating and predicting events in the timeline associated with that span of time.

IF (as some suppose in recent times) a time span could be injected with "undefined gaps of time" - then the jews might still be in Babylon using the 70 years of Daniel 9:2 infested with gaps. Or the Hebrews might still be enslaved in Egypt using the 400 years of Genesis 15:13 and injecting "undefined gaps of time" into it.

Inserting gaps into time spans that are numerically quantified as we see with the 70 years and the 70 weeks - voids the entire span of time as a reliable source of information and prophecy. IF a builder contracts to build your house in 3 months but then injects "undefined gaps of time" between the 2nd and 3rd month - the entire 3 month contract is made void. IT could be 3 years or 3 decades as long as "gaps of time of undefined duration' are allowed.

IN the same way - inserting such "Gaps of time" would extend out the 7 day timeline of Genesis 1-2:3 to any length of time one is inclined to interject. Injecting gaps into quantified time spans is classic eisegesis.

All agree that "for your people" refers to the Jews as the "Holy nation, royal priesthood, chosen by God" - the Hebrew nation church of Israel. The time span is specifically assigned to Israel - literally.

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Dan 9:24 (continued)
Kalah (3615) to finish the transgression, Tamam(8552) to make an end of sin,

Tamam (8552) "end", "finish" "complete", "spent"
Kalah (3615) "finish" (Ezra 1:1) "Fulfill" Gen 15 "complete" - "come to an end"

Here Daniel predicts that during this 490 year span of time - they will complete the measure of their sin and guilt.

The sense of Kalay in Dan 9 used in prophecy and tied to a length of time for sin (a time span) is the same as we find it in Genesis 15 -

Gen 15:
13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where (17) they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
15 "As for you, (20) you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
16 "Then in (21) the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet (Kalah)complete."

Just as the Amorites were given a 400 year time span to fill up the measure of their iniquity - so Israel is given 490 years from the time of the decree listed in Daniel 9 to complete their measure of iniquity.

Matt 23:
31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

The measure of guilt was fast filling in the days of Christ - He predicts they will fill it up in that generation

Matt 23
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Paul declares that they had already filled up their measure of sin and iniquity by the time of his ministry.

1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

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Daniel 9:24 (continued)
to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy [/I]

This 70 week prophetic span of time (490 literal years) would bring in the Messiah and fulfill all righteousness - fulfilling all vision and prophecy pertaining to Israel and the Messiah during this 490 year span of time.

The final atonement for sin - through the Messiah - fhe focus of the nation's festivals and religious services..

1John 2:2 – Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the whole world.

To bring in "everlasting righteousness"
Matt 3:15 - Christ "fulfilled all righteousness" when He came.

Romans 3:
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

The completion of all vision and prophecy pertaining to the Messiah and the nation of Israel.
All prophecy and vision pertaining to Israel's Messiah - the Savior of the World

1 Peter 1:
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

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Daniel 9:24 and to anoint the most holy place.

During this 490 year span of time the Most Holy place in heaven - the temple built by God "without hands", Christ (the Messiah the Anointed one) would anoint the most holy place.

Hebrews 9:
18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, "" THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.''
21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Christ is seen in Hebrews 9 to anoint the most Holy Place and to offer the “one sacrifice” that obsoletes all others. Putting an end to sacrifice and offering. His alone is the only real sacrifice for the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins.

So in every aspect The REAL saving Actions of the Messiah are INSIDE the timeline prophecy of the 70 weeks IF you simply leave them in tact - - no chopping, no slicing no dicing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

There's not one week left. There are no weeks left.

Dan. 9-27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The one week in the scripture above is the missing 7 years. The "He" that is referred to is Jesus. In the midst of the week, (or 3 1/2 years into it He was crucified. He was the supreme sacrifice and caused the sacrifaces to not be needed anymore.

That leaves 3 1/2 years of the 490 unaccounted for. 3 1/2 years after Jesus death, Steven had been stoned, various other things had happened, and the prophecy had been completed.

The whole prophecy of the 490 years pertained to the coming of the Messiah, as a baby, and ended 3 1/2 years after His death. It's over.

Selah,

Tam

OK, OK, now I know "where you're coming from", and I have heard this before.

The trib is One week, or seven years, the first half, 3 1/2 years is relatively "peaceable" with the AC consolidating his power with "Flatteries".

However, at the start of the second half and after the head wound, (I believe) his personality changes, he goes into the rebuild temple and proclaims himself god, this is the "Abomination of Desolation", he is then given 1260 days, these days are known as "GREAT TRIBULATION".

This is when he kills everyone who refuse to worship the "Image".

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (3 1/2 years)

But the total time of the trib is "seven years, or "one week", minus whatever Jesus "shorten those days"

Da 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The AC "mimics" Jesus in many areas, God gave Jesus 3 1/2 years (42 months) to preach his gospel, and God will give "Satan's SON", (of perdition) 42 months to preach his gospel.

Dan. 9-27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Go back to the link I posted and read the "feast days", the above verse describes the "pre trib rapture" of the church.

 

[BobRyan]

It is essential that we note that the TIMELINE gives us 69 weeks (483 years) TO the start of the Messiah's work (the annointing of Christ at His Baptism by the Holy Spirit).

The START of Christ's ministry begins AFTER the 483 years and is the start of the 70th week.

Here is a clue -- The Year that FOLLOWS the 483rd year - is the 484th year.

(Big surprise ? Bumfuzzling?)

Daniel 9:
25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Christ (Hebrew Messiah) – is the “anointed one”. This was fulfilled at His baptism.

And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled
Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

Acts 10
36 ""The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)
37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
38 "" You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 ""We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Christ is the anointed one – anointed by the Holy Spirit.

John 1
32 John testified saying, "" I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
33 ""I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
34 ""I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.''

Matt 3
The Baptism of Jesus

13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him.
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Here we see the timeline broken down into discrete segments - each following the other. 7 weeks (49 years) assigned to the rebuilding of Jerusalem - followed by 62 weeks making a total of 69 weeks (483 literal years) and the beginning of the mission of the "anointed one" the Messiah.

And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled
Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

And so begins Christ's 3.5 year ministry in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

So far the exact matching anti-type fulfillment in the NT is far more "explicit" in fulfilling the prophetic components of Daniel 9 - using this explicit and direct approach - than all other proposed solutions. None of them contain the direct references and language for Daniel 9 as we have seen here so far.

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But what happens "after the 483 years" - "after the 69 weeks" - "after the 7 plus 62 weeks" of prophetic time?

Again - using the Explicit language of the text - instead of the suppositions so common today.


Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,

After 7+62 weeks (After the 69 weeks) – comes the 70th week. In that Week the Messiah is cut off. Still many views depend on ignoring this key fact and reading “instead” that “at or near the END of the 69th week the Messiah is cut off”

26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off (NASB)

26"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, (NKJV)

26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, YLT

26And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,(DARBY)

26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off (ESV)

Isaiah sees this same crucifixion event.


Isaiah 53
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

Instead of pointing us to an undefined gap of time as the event that follows "AFTER" the 69 weeks - Daniel's prophecy Continues on the SAME timeline - through the 490 years timeline. The 69 weeks takes us TO the advent of the Messiah and then After that 483 year boundary - comes the events of the Messiah in that last week - in the last 7 years in the week that follows the 69th week -- and what follows is the cross.

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Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, AND the People of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Certainly it is agreed that "After the 69th week" Christ was crucified - in fact He was crucified in the midst of the 70th week which also meant the sacrifices were at an end.

Notice here that there are TWO actors. The Messiah (who will be cut off) and the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come.

AND after that - (in fact long after that) - the city and the sanctuary were destroyed by the people of Rome - the Roman army (70 A. D) but that is another event AFTER the 69th week and After the cross and After even the 70th week.

But in the NT - it is the Jews THEMSELVES that bring about the destruction of the city according to Christ's own statements. The people of the Prince who is to come - Messiah the Prince - His people are the Jews and the NT declares that THEY were the "People" that would not let God spare the city.

In John 1 we are told that the "people of Messiah the Prince" are the Jews. "HE came unto His own and His own received Him not". Isaiah 9:6 foretells the same message of the Messiah as coming prince - Dan 9:25

In Mat 23:37-38 we are told that Christ came to save the city and the nation but the "people of the prince" would not have it.

Matt 23:
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU were unwilling.


When Christ weeps over the city He says - the city is destroyed because of a specific reason relating to the people of the prince..
Luke 19:41-444 "Because You did not know the time of your visitation".

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, AND the People of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Certainly it is agreed that "After the 69th week" Christ was crucified - in fact He was crucified in the midst of the 70th week which also meant the sacrifices were at an end.

Notice here that there are TWO actors. The Messiah (who will be cut off) and the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come.

AND after that - (in fact long after that) - the city and the sanctuary were destroyed by the people of Rome - the Roman army (70 A. D) but that is another event AFTER the 69th week and After the cross and After even the 70th week.

But in the NT - it is the Jews THEMSELVES that bring about the destruction of the city according to Christ's own statements. The people of the Prince who is to come - Messiah the Prince - His people are the Jews and the NT declares that THEY were the "People" that would not let God spare the city.

In John 1 we are told that the "people of Messiah the Prince" are the Jews. "HE came unto His own and His own received Him not". Isaiah 9:6 foretells the same message of the Messiah as coming prince - Dan 9:25

In Mat 23:37-38 we are told that Christ came to save the city and the nation but the "people of the prince" would not have it.

Matt 23:
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU were unwilling.


When Christ weeps over the city He says - the city is destroyed because of a specific reason relating to the people of the prince..
Luke 19:41-444 "Because You did not know the time of your visitation".

Daniel uses the symbol for war "a flood" and declares that war and desolation are "Decreed". Indeed Moses did predict that just such a result would occur.

Dan 9:26 And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The "house left desolate" Matt 23:38 is a direct fulfillment of what "is decreed" by God
1Kings 9:6-7, Jer 22:5, Micah 3:11-12, Ezek 11:21-23.

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Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, NASB

(Shall make a covenant Stronger – firm?)

NKJV 27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

YLT – Youngs Literal Translation
27And He hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week,


”He hath strengthened a covenant” – this “HE” is a reference to vs 26. In vs 26 we have only two choices – it can be “Messiah the Prince” or it can be the other actor in vs 26 “The PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. The fact that this is singular means that it can not be “THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. So that leaves only “the MESSIAH” as the proper antecedent to the pronoun “he”.

Daniel is told that the period of "strengthening" the covenant last for the entire 7 years - for the entire 70th week that follows the 69th week. The historicist messianic view presented here promotes the full 7 year period as the time when the covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32 (Hebrews 8:8-12) is being "Confirmed" and strengthened.

Christ says explicitly that the work of the Messiah is very much tied to the covenant

At the start of Christ’s ministry – at the sermon on the mount Christ provides the blessings (Matt 5:3-11) and the curses (Matt 7:13-27) and affirms His own Law already given (Matt 5:21-48) declaring them to be unbreakable – He adds even deeper “stronger” meaning to the ones already in place (Matt 6:19-7:11)

This is in direct parallel to Moses giving the Covenant to Israel with the blessing and curse and the Law of God defined.

(Notice that IN the words of the New Covenant - the Law of the New Covenant is the existing moral code defining sin and rebellion -- Christ the Creator’s moral law known and in force at the time of Jeremiah )

Jer 31
31 "" Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,'' declares the LORD.
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 "" If this fixed order departs From before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.''
37 Thus says the LORD, "" If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,'' declares the LORD.

#1. God’s Law- is still in place even in the New Covenant – it is that same law “Written on the heart”.

#2. This covenant is in place while God’s promise to Israel is in place that He would forgive them for their rebellion and would not cast them off.

#3. Christ comes to strengthen that Covenant – already in place – with promises to Israel already in place – with the Jer 31 promise of the city of Jeremiah's day rebuilt – already in place in Christ's day.

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.

Peter shows this strengthening of existing salvation covenants, laws and promises in his letter to the church. Peter declares that this is the subject of the OT – this the great

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

Peter declares salvation’s covenantal promises of the OT to be “made more sure” in the fact of “seeing Christ” ministry during the time of His first coming.

2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, ""This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased''
18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

Matt 26:28 "This is My blood of the Covenant", which is shed on behalf of Many for the forgiveness of sins"

1Cor 11:25 "This cup IS the New Covenant in My blood".

2Cor 3 tells us that it is the New Covenant alone that is "the ministry of righteousness" and "the covenant that gives life" .

Galatians 1:6-9 tells us that there has been only one gospel. And the message of the New Covenant alone is life, forgiveness and restored fellowship with God as we see it in Heb 8:8-12).

At the start of Christ's ministry we have the covenant "strengthened" in the form of the Long promised Messiah of the New Covenant finally arriving.

In the middle of "the week" of seven years we have the New Covenant "strengthened" in the form of the atoning sacrifice being made.

Then in the last 3.5 years we have it "strengthened" in the form of the full message of the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah preached in its fullness to the Hebrew nation church - the "Holy Nation" "Royal Priesthood" - "People for God's own possession".

At each step the covenant is strengthened until it reaches its complete zenith of proclamation to the Hebrews.

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Daniel 9:27 in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;

Here we do not see "the covenant ended" - rather the covenant is strengthened for the full 7 years. What we see is that the sacrifices of the OT Hebrew nation church - end in the middle of the week. THe Messiah's atoning sacrifice brings about the end of sacrifices. So DID the Messiah put a STOP to sacrifices and offerings (from God’s POV) when He came – but only in the midst of the week (3.5 years into His ministry)?

Heb 10
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "" SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
...
9 then He said, "" BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.'' He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
...
16 "" THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,'' He then says,
17 "" AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.''
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Heb 7
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.
...
19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Daniel's prophecy highlights one of the key gospel doctrines regarding the sacrificial system in relationship to the atoning death of the Messiah. Here we see that the sacrifices themselves would end - as they are merely shadows pointing TO the work of the Messiah (Col 2:17).

ONE alternative to this gospel central view - is that the event being highlighted (in this epic prophecy regarding the coming Messiah in 480 years) - is that the minor aspect of the Roman people and the Roman Caesar as they stop the defunct worship practices of an apostate Jewish church about 40 years after the Messiah negates their usefulness.

(Truly a trivialization of the mammoth gospel themes that the first view highlights in Daniel 9.) This view bypasses the aspect of the Romans act of slaughtering the Jews - and focuses instead on the fact that this stops sacrifices that are already made void and made defunct by the Messiah some 40 years prior to this.

Another even less useful concept is that this key segment of Daniel's prophecy focused on an insignificant and pointless act of a future Antichrist at the end of time who stops Jewish animal sacrifices already made void some 2000 years prior to that by the Messiah and already Stopped by the Romans 2000 years prior.. (One wonders if the antichrist is to be applauded for that or criticized).

The double problem in this view is that stopping what Christ already made void is pointless just as stopping what was Already Stopped is pointless. So you must also invent an entirely NEW imaginative story line to precede this event. One where God re-instituting the defunct "Shadows" sacrifices that pointed FORWARD to Christ's first coming. This means trading the more gospel centric view of Christ as the antitype for all Hebrew temple sacrifices and replacing that with this anti-Christ centric view of sacrifices-resumed then-stopped-again -- hard to swallow by every standard.


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Dan 9:27 and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The abominations begin with the rejection of the Hebrew nation of it's own king and Messiah and the curse pronounced on themselves "His blood be upon us and upon our children" Matt 27:24-25. And it completes with the work of the pagan Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and making a "complete destruction" in 70 A.D.

This is a view endorsed by the NT apostles and rejected by NT Jews.

Acts 2:23
22 ""Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 "" But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Acts 4:8-10
7 When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, ""By what power, or in what name, have you done this?''
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "" Rulers and elders of the people,
9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well,
10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

Acts 5:28-30
27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them,
28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us."

 

[BobRyan]

Those who attempt to "slice and dice" the 70 weeks - the 490 year timeline prophecy of Daniel 9 -- go against all timeline prophecies of scripture to abuse the timeline in such a way.

They OMIT ALL the actions of Christ - from the timeline!!

They then claim that the CITY BUILT in the timeline prophecy IS NOT the city destroyed!! They need "TWO DIFFERENT cities". Yet the timeline clearly points not only to the ONE Messiah but also to the ONE city of Jerusalem!

Excluding them BOTH - from the TIMELINE in which they are linked and predicted - is the work of the "slicing and dicing" doctrines that seek to split up the 490 year timeline of Daniel 9.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Contrast the direct application of the points above to the points explicitly made in the prophecy of Daniel 9 with the following alternative.

All Agree that the 490 year timeline is THE great Messianic timeline prophecy in the OT.

All Agree Daniel nine contains two timelines – Jeremiah’s 70 years in Dan 9:2 and Daniel’s 490 years (70 weeks) starting in vs 24.

All Agree The 70 year timeline remains in tact and holds up This means that GIVEN the start year AND the timeline – the end year is also known

1. Yet the 490 year prophecy is to be broken up by inserting gaps of unknown lengths of time so that the end year can not be known EVEN though the start year is known. This is an abuse to a timeline not done with any other timeline in scripture – and so it is without exegetical support. We should ignore the fact that there are no instances in all of scripture of a time span prophecy - having gaps inserted, just go ahead and insert the gap as the theory requires without looking for exegetical precedence.

2. Although this is the great Messianic timeline prophecy of scripture – ALL messianic events listed in chapter 9 are to be excluded from the timeline to satisfy the need to make this prophecy all about the end time antichrist. NO Messianic event listed in the chapter is allowed IN the 490 year timeline!

3. Although the text speaks of the coming of the Messiah and then of his death in the week that follows the 69th week (70th week) we are to ignore that and put the 70th week of 7 years of time at the end of the age.

4. Although the text of Daniel 9 speaks of rebuilding the city of Jerusalem and then later about its destruction – we are to pretend that the city destroyed is NOT the city rebuilt. I.E the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is to be ignored entirely – not IN the 490 years and not even an event mentioned OUTSIDE the 490 years!

5. Although the text says an existing covenant is Strengthened for the entire 7 years of the last prophetic week - we ignore that and pretend as though the text said a NEW covenant IS MADE at the start of the 7 years and then BROKEN in the middle of the 7 years – not lasting 7 years. We edit and reword such that the start of this 7 years now says 'and he will make a covenant at the start of the 7 years but will then break his word after 3.5 years".

6. Find fulfillment of this alternate view in the NT - NOT by actually using the references to "covenant" and placing and end to "Sacrifices" or to "the people of the Prince" - just make things up in 2Thess2 and Rev 13 out of whole cloth to be reworked back into Daniel 9.

7. In vs 26 we have two actors – A – THE MESSIAH and B-The PEOPLE of the prince who is to come. The “HE” of vs 27 applies to the “prince” in the PEOPLE of the prince – ignoring the fact that the PRINCE who is to come in vs 26 does nothing in vs 26. Skipping the primary subject of vs 26 (The MESSIAH) we are to make the “HE” of vs 27 refer only to the antichrist.

===============================================================

But here is another question for our dispensationalist brethren

- why object to Dan 9 holding it's integrity for BOTH time spans?

What do you lose by simply staying consistent with the text as I have shown above?

You already believe that Messiah the PRINCE (as Daniel 9 states ) came at the end of the 69th week (483 years) AND that this was the first advent of Christ - the ministry of the Messiah as promised in scripture.

You already believe that He died in that 7 year span following the start of Christ's ministry and that Daniel identifies that with events AFTER the 69th week.

You already believe that all the sacrifices ended at the cross - exactly 3 and 1/2 years after the start of Christ' ministry AND that He is the promised PRINCE of Isaiah 9:6 AND of Daniel's own prediction regarding "Messiah the Prince".

You already admit that AFTER the 69 weeks IN that next 7 year time period - the Messiah was "cut off" - crucified.

You already believe that God quit using the Hebrew nation church as His form of "Royal Priesthood" in that 7 year period?

So what do you lose?

The tribulation?
Christ predicts the tribulation period in Matt 24 without corrupting the time span of Daniel 9.

The rapture?
We already have the rapture predicted in 1Thess 4 without corrupting either times pane of Daniel 9.

So what is there to lose by staying with sound exegetical consistent use of BOTH time spans in Daniel 9?

Why the reluctance here?

The beauty of sticking with the consistent exegetical view that retains the integrity of BOTH time spans in Daniel 9 - is that not ONLY is it much easier to show from scripture - but ALSO we have no "open door" for "gap theories". There is no basis for injecting a gap into the timeline of Gen 1 based on the complete abandon with which some choose to inject gaps into one of the time spans of Daniel 9.

 

[BobRyan]

If one assumes (for the sake of argument) that there IS a pre-trib rapture -- such a bias STILL provides NO basis for breaking the 490 year timeline in Daniel 9. It starts about 500 years before Christ's baptism and ends with the Messiah "cut off" in the midst of the last week of years!! The 70th week. the 7 year period STARTING with Christ's baptism -- having His death mid-week INTO that 7 years and ending with the Gospel going out to the Gentiles!!

Christ Himself in Acts 1 told His followers to start the gospel WITHIN Israel. But in Acts 13 we see the explicit statement "Since you regard yourselves as UNWORTHY of the gospel we are turning to the Gentiles"

Thus ending the probationary time for Israel.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Bob

You say there's "NO GAPS" in the time line between the beginning and end of the 70 weeks.

But did you notice what has to happen before the "END" of the 70 weeks will occur???

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

For the church these have already occurred, but for an "Unbelieving Israel", it is yet to occur, that's why there is a trib.

You say there's no gap, OK, answer this for me.

God started out with the Jews in the OT, and the last event on earth is tribulation period between God and Israel,

Now, explain these "TWO DAYS" and why they are "blinded" if there's "NO GAP" in the 70 weeks.

Ho 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The 5th, 6th, days are the "GAP".

 

[BobRyan]

#1. There are NO TWO days referenced in the 70 year timeline of Dan 9:1-5 NOR in the 70 week (490 year timeline) prophecy of Daniel 9.

#2. The statement of Hos 6 is made at a time INSIDE the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 EVEN by the POV of those who seek to chop up the timeline of Dan 9.

#3. My posts SHOW the enpoints satisfying the conditions of the prophecy as already noted. HOWEVER even if one wanted to be "bumfuzzled" by the ENDPOINTS -- being confused IS STILL no justification to BREAK THIS timeline prophecy and abuse it in a way that can not be done to ANY contiguous timeline and preserve its use AS a timeline.

#4. It is obvious to ALL that IF the first 483 years of the timeline were ALSO subjected to the same kind of abuse as the last week is given by those who ignore context -- then EVEN the predictive nature of the 483 years pointing to the time of Christ would be VOID.

There is no precidence in all of scripture for the slice and dice methods employed against the 70 weeks.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Me4Him quote

"Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,"

or

490 years are decreed for Daniel's people, the Israelites, and upon Jerusalem to finish:

1. Transgressions against God.
2. Put an end to sin.
3. Atone for wickedness.
4. Bring ever lasting righteousness.
5. To seal up vision and prophecy.

CONTEXT: GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE THE ISRAELITES AND JERUSALEM, ISRAEL. Has nothing to do with the body of Christ, HELLO, ANY BODY HOME!

Don't ya think that if God will do the above for the Jews, he'll do it for the Church, not being a respector of person, and all being "IN CHRIST"??

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (the law)

2. and to make an end of sins,
Joh 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,


4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ

5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
Lu 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written,

6. and to anoint the most Holy.
Ac 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:

Has this been accomplished with Israel???

Are you sure you're "HOME"??

 

[Me4Him]

BOB

Jews interpret scripture "LITERALLY", not "Spiritually", so when Jews read "two days" they understand it to mean "Two thousand years",

But as the chart shows, it is also "TRUE" if interpreted "SPIRITUAL" to apply to the Two days Jesus was in the tomb and the "third day" was "Resurrected".

As far as the "TIME LINE", the "SEVEN DAYS" are scripture from Genesis/Revelations, it's so obvious, no one argues against it.

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest:

 

[Ed Edwards]

This topic is continued at this topic:
click here -- 2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture-- click here

[ October 10, 2005, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hosea 6:2 speaks of the prophecy on Christ's resurrection. It already fulfilled at His resurrection AFTER 2 days-speak of his death & buried. Then on the third day, Christ is risen! Look above Hosea 6:1 predicts of Christ's crucification. It already fulfilled that Christ was crucified on the cross for our sin.

Hosea 6:2 have do nothing with tribulation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!